pclayton Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 The other thread about the club raise vs the spade bid and the subsequent discussion about a forcing pass at the 5 level made me think about another hand I had on OKB about 4 years ago: IMP pairs, all vul: Pard.....RHO.....Me.....LHO1N.......2♠.......4♦.........Pass4♥.......4♠.......? 1N was 14-16 and 4♦ was a Texas Transfer. Would you consider a pass here forcing? What about Red on White? Or White on Red? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 No in all cases. To set up a fp auction you could have bid a gf 3H. Incidentally your rho sounds like a nutter. Who bids a nf 2S and then 4S? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 The fact RHO is a nutter is the fact that can make this bidding a forcing pass, he doesn´t seem to think he is making his contract, so is some cases its good to beleive him :unsure:. I wouldn´t take pass as forcing anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 Bidding the same hand twice may be bad strategy, but in practice it does happen very often (especially from players who also play poker) and one should better be prepared to deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 I think this has to be forcing pass. Two reasons: 1. RHO limited his hand by 2S, so 4S must be for save. 2. We bid a game. Of course he may be walking the dog but I am not going to worry about that all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 No in all cases. To set up a fp auction you could have bid a gf 3H. Incidentally your rho sounds like a nutter. Who bids a nf 2S and then 4S? Ron, the first claim is not true. Playing Texas doesnt imply that is not forcing. The reason you didnt bid 3H is there is still room for Texas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 The other thread about the club raise vs the spade bid and the subsequent discussion about a forcing pass at the 5 level made me think about another hand I had on OKB about 4 years ago: IMP pairs, all vul: Pard.....RHO.....Me.....LHO1N.......2♠.......4♦.........Pass4♥.......4♠.......? 1N was 14-16 and 4♦ was a Texas Transfer. Would you consider a pass here forcing? What about Red on White? Or White on Red? Pard.....RHO.....Me.....LHO1N.......2♠.......4♦.........Pass4♥.......4♠.......? Vulnerability conditions and whether pass is forcing..... 1) None Vul. - Pass is not forcing2) They Vul - Pass is not forcing3) All vul - Pass is not forcing4) We vul, they not vul - Pass is forcing. I expect the 4♦ bidder to double most of the time he was serious about 4♥ anyway. But when we are vul and they are not, we KNOW he was serious about 4♥... the other situations, this is not clear. This allows 4♦ bidder to make stronger (pass and pull) and weaker (bid over 4♠) slam tries, which allows you to effectively use your opponents 4♠ bid to help define your hand. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 I don't think there's a case for forcing pass at any vulnerability. The 4D bid could have been done with the intention of luring opps into a phantom save. The tactics seems to have worked, so just let them go down in peace. Opener is not invited to take any action but pass, or eventually double with a suitable hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker_gib Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 I have never played those kind of 4-level transfers and I suppose that you have another way to transfer with a strong hand (FG) and ♥ (Rubensohl...) So those kind of transfers can be done with a weak hand and long ♥. Therefore, pass should not be forcing in any case ! By the way, for those who are playing Texas, what's the difference between 1NT 4♦4♥ and 1NT 2♦2♥ 4♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 By the way, for those who are playing Texas, what's the difference between 1NT 4♦4♥ and 1NT 2♦2♥ 4♥ section auction is mild slam try... First auction is not over.... here is a further difference... 1N-2D-2H-4N <--- can be passed, quantitative 1N-4D-4H-4N <--- Roman Keycard blackwood, with hearts as trumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted December 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 The reason I posted this is because I think the bridge community has undergone a shift when it comes to these auctions. I used to play that whenever we bid a vulnerable game, it sets up a forcing pass. Period, end of story. Now, with more total tricks bidding going on, the philosophy is get your bid off your chest, and share the decision with pard. On the actual auction, I think that Ben's thinking is best; pass is forcing only at adverse vulnerability here. I suppose you can go through some machinations to set up a forcing pass earlier on in the auctions, but thats no big deal. Like Berkowitz says: Pass is forcing only if the janitor can tell if its forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 I have never played those kind of 4-level transfers and I suppose that you have another way to transfer with a strong hand (FG) and ♥ (Rubensohl...) So those kind of transfers can be done with a weak hand and long ♥. Therefore, pass should not be forcing in any case ! By the way, for those who are playing Texas, what's the difference between 1NT 4♦4♥ and 1NT 2♦2♥ 4♥ Rubenshol hardly helps.. btw, and makes it even worse..... imagine... 1NT-(2S)-3D-(p)3H-(4S) - ? (the similar auction). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 red/white i would bid texas with: -- QJ9xxxx Jxxx xx as would most people. Do i really want pass to be forcing? I dont believe in vulnerability based FP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker_gib Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 I have never played those kind of 4-level transfers and I suppose that you have another way to transfer with a strong hand (FG) and ♥ (Rubensohl...) So those kind of transfers can be done with a weak hand and long ♥. Therefore, pass should not be forcing in any case ! By the way, for those who are playing Texas, what's the difference between 1NT 4♦4♥ and 1NT 2♦2♥ 4♥ Rubenshol hardly helps.. btw, and makes it even worse..... imagine... 1NT-(2S)-3D-(p)3H-(4S) - ? (the similar auction). Yes, you are right, if 3♦ can be long and weak ♥ to stop in 3♥ then you don't have forcing pass anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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