Deal #8

[Zelandakh]

Adam, if you are going to make accusations then at least read the fricking auction and thread first!

 

Zelandakh's auction has responder making a general force instead of trying 3nt

I have mentioned 3NT as a possible alternative for North. Why is it you think ♠T9xx is a good enough stopper for me but not good enough for straube, or Justin, or anyone else for that matter? I stand by what I said before, that adding the ♠J makes it an obvious 3NT (even though 6♣ still makes) but without it asking is better. Since everyone else is asking I am not sure why you find this controvercial, except...

 

 

or a stopper ask

Sorry, but after 3♦ I have stated that the system has 3♠ as a natural bid. Just how do you expect me to ask for a stopper if not with 3♥? For what it is worth, it is obvious to me that 3♥ asks for spade help on this auction but if I said that explicitly it would suggest a level of system detail which is not there. I agree completely that this is not optimal and one of 3♥ or 3♠ should show clubs, but I am not going to invent system on the fly.

 

 

or raising the suit opener bid twice,

Opener did not bid diamonds twice. 3♦ showed diamonds; 2♦ did not.

 

 

and then opener introduces a three-card suit at the four-level

What else? Do you think a singleton ace is worth bidding 3NT in a hand that can still have 3 spades? I agree that a club suit of ♣xxx should not be introduced but I fail to see any alternative on the given hand. It is not that South thinks "if partner had 5 clubs we will have a slam" so much as a simple expedient of describing the hand to choose which minor is going to be best given that 3NT appears to be out. Note that it is highly likely that North has clubs on this auction since there was never an opportunity to show them. If not then they will surely have some kind of diamond support. Otherwise why were they bidding 3♥ in the first place?

 

 

and of course responder has a cheap keycard bid in opener's three-card suit available!

This is just a cheap shot Adam. Given that

a) North did not bid a natural 3♠;

b) North failed to support diamonds...twice;

c) North has previously denied 4 hearts; and

d) There are almost no cue bids above 4 of the trump suit in the system,

 

what exactly do you think 4♥ might mean? I can see 2 possibilities: either it is a slam try agreeing clubs or it is RKCB for clubs. On this hand, either meaning would reach 6♣. More to the point, the system meta-rules tell me that the RKCB meaning is correct. More interesting for me was the meaning of 4♠ and 4NT instead of 4♥. These can hardly be natural for the same reasons as above. I think one of these (4NT) should be a Last Train slam try for clubs and am simply not sure about 4♠. If partner bid 4♠ I would probably try 4NT on almost any hand and hope to guess what they were up to next round. More to the point, I would simply not make these bids without stronger agreements. So tell me, if you think 4♥ as RKCB is unreasonable, what exactly do you think it should be?

 

Sorry Adam, but I think your criticisms here are total bullshit and I do not mind calling you on it. Straube at least read the auction and has valid concerns. I have freely admitted that there are plenty of variations on the hands where I will end up in the wrong contract. As far as I can see, this is true for everyone. It is a tough hand. But at least try to consider the system in place before typing rubbish. Thanks.

[nige1]

#08. South is dealer. Vul vs vul. Imps. If RHO can overcall 1S, he will...unless North shows spades.

Jasmine Club might reach 3N but on a good day ...

North ♠ T963 ♥ A6 ♦ T3 ♣ QT974: __ 1♦ 3♣ 4♥ 5♦

East ..........................: __(1♠)

South ♠ A ♥ K973 ♦ AKQJ2 ♣ KJ2: 1♣ _X 4♣ 4N 6♣

• 1♣ = Art 16+.
• 1♦ = Art 0-7.
• _X = T/O.
• 3♣ = Nat, 5-7, 5+ cards.
• 4♣ = Nat Key-ask?
• 4♥ = Art 1/4 keys.
  
• 4N = ♣Q-ask?
• 5♦ = ♣Q but nothing else.
• 6♣ = Nat.

Marks, IMO: 6♣ = 10, 5♣ = 7. 3N = 5. 5♦ = 4. 6♦ = 3. Partscores = 2.

[straube]

Zelandakh, I also mistook 2D as showing diamonds rather than (if I understand) an unspecified minor suit. Anyway your auction makes a bit more sense to me after thinking about it. I'm still inclined to think you get to 5C because of the lack of knowledge about the CJ but opener could have this card or the CJ could be finessed so I see how 6C is possible.

 

Please (to both Zelandakh and awm) let's not fight further. awm hasn't replied yet. It's his choice whether to do so, but I'd rather not start a back and forth here. I understand Zelandakh's reply and I also did ask Adam to comment on the auctions that he thought were doubtful. I think some of this doubt came from (our both) mistaking 2D as showing diamonds.

 

Both of you are among my favorite posters. I'm not referencing this past deal now, but in terms of looking at future deals, we all need to be careful with each other's feelings but also feel freedom to question, criticize, offer improvements etc. This isn't a bidding contest. It's an opportunity to compare a variety of systems on the same deals and we have to try to help each other be as objective as possible.

 

Really, I hope no more needs to be said, but if so, I'll stay out. Thanks to both of you for participating in this.

[the_clown]

1♣-1♦- (1♠)

X -3♣

4♣-4♥ (natural Slam try, cuebid)

6♣

[Mbodell]

well at the table we got to 3nt N but through discussion we decided with proper system evaluation/usage 6♣S seems likely with tosr based system.

 

table auction:

 

1♣-1♦-(1♠) : art forcing 16+ unbal, 18+ bal; art neg, 0-7 or occ 8+ with <2 controls

X-3♣ : take out; max in context with 5+ clubs

3♠-3nt : strong raise and/or look for spade stopper help for nt; have at least a partial spade stop

P : and worried about less useful spade honors and then not enough for slam and even some risk of game pass

 

better auction:

1♣-1♦-(1♠) : art forcing 16+ unbal, 18+ bal; art neg, 0-7 or occ 8+ with <2 controls

X-3♣ : take out; max in context with 5+ clubs

4♦-4♥ : agree ♣, keycard; 1 (or 4) kc

4♠-5♠ : Q ask; have the Q, have no outside K

6♣ : to play

[qplus10]

1♣1♦(1♠)

3♦(not forcing or setting ♦ this time)3nt.

 

 

It really likes 3nt on every hand :-).

[jack502]

1♣1♥(1♠)

3nt.

 

 

 

 

1♥= semi positive bal or 4441 or unbal no 5 card major.

[benlessard]

Comedy Club

 

1D--1S (nat---5S nf)

3H--5C (1453 SJS--soff)

 

From north POV slam is so far away.

[FM75]

OCP

 

1♣ - 1♦ (1♠)

X - 2♣

2♦ - 3N strong hand - (lebensohl, no spade stop)

 

Hoping that p has just enough.

[Lord Molyb]

Molybdenum Forcing Pass system:

S ---- N

P --- 1♣ (1♠) (opening or better, 0-bad 12)

dbl --- 2♣ (4 hearts and still unlimited, best suit)

2♠ --- 3♠ (18+ with club support, enough to bid 3nt but no spade stopper)

4NT --- 5♣ (1 key card)

P (5NT isn't safe)

[Zelandakh]

I hope you do not take my posts as picking holes. It is my intention to try to understand the auctions in these threads, at least for those systems that interest me. I have also made some suggestions on occasion, which I hope are helpful for system designers who have incomplete systems. Here, I would make the suggestion that you might consider switching the meanings of 4♦ and 4NT, so that 4♦ is the key card ask (aka Kickback). That would allow you a trump queen ask below 5♣. If you would prefer not to receive feedback on your auctions then I am happy to stop responding.

[Lord Molyb]

I hope you do not take my posts as picking holes. It is my intention to try to understand the auctions in these threads, at least for those systems that interest me. I have also made some suggestions on occasion, which I hope are helpful for system designers who have incomplete systems. Here, I would make the suggestion that you might consider switching the meanings of 4♦ and 4NT, so that 4♦ is the key card ask (aka Kickback). That would allow you a trump queen ask below 5♣. If you would prefer not to receive feedback on your auctions then I am happy to stop responding.

Yeah, that would probably fix the problem.

(I don't really take them as picking holes, I was sort of cranky the day I said that :P )

[CamHenry]

Unnamed Homebrew Diamond

A lot here depends on whether S decides to treat the hand as balanced or as two-suited reds. Also, I notice that our system notes are unclear on the start 1♦-1♥-(1♠).

 

If S decides to treat the hand as balanced:

2♣-2♦ Weak 2♦, OR weak both majors, OR GF both majors, OR 20-23 bal/pass-or-correct (weak)

2N-3♣ 20-23 bal/modified 5-card puppet Stayman

3♦-3♥

3N end

 

If S decides to show both reds:

1♦-1♥-(1♠) 16+, excluding GF/0-7, denying weak takeout

2♦-3♣ Natural, denies a semi-solid 6-card suit/natural, good hand for the 1♥ response

3♠-4♦ Establishes a GF/3-or-5 CPs (A=2, K=1, ♣Q=1)

4♠-6♣ 8+ CPs, second-round ♠ control/To play (no chance of double-counting K/singleton)

 

This auction is a little murky, as it may be that 3♠ asks for a stopper, and it may be that 4♦ agrees diamonds - so this could go wrong. We might play 6♦, for example, which would not be disastrous on these hands but could cause problems on a bad ♣ split.

[Zelandakh]

On your second auction, East would overcall 1♠ under straube's conditions. Also, I cannot really follow where clubs got agreed, or even if South has shown any at all. Finally, could you give an indication as to whether you think you would treat the South hand as balanced or not in practise as the end results are obviously quite different depending on the route chosen.

[CamHenry]

On your second auction, East would overcall 1♠ under straube's conditions. Also, I cannot really follow where clubs got agreed, or even if South has shown any at all. Finally, could you give an indication as to whether you think you would treat the South hand as balanced or not in practise as the end results are obviously quite different depending on the route chosen.

 

The second auction did have the 1♠ overcall, but I'd misformatted it. It's because of the overcall that 3♠ is definitely a "let's choose the right game" call. It may agree clubs. I'd need to ask Matt what he thinks would happen here!

 

I think we would not intend to treat the S hand as balanced. There's about a 15% chance that we would do so, based on the singleton being an ace, the weakness of the ♥ suit, and the flattish distribution.

[Kungsgeten]

South is dealer. Vul vs vul. Imps. If RHO can overcall 1S, he will...unless North shows spades.

 

................T963

................A6

................T3

................QT974

J84...............................KQ752

Q842............................JT5

985..............................T64

A8................................A8

................A

................K973

................AKQJ2

................KJ2

 

Pass 2000

 

P - 1C; (both hands show 0-7 or 17+)

(1S)

 

Further bidding isn't discussed very much, so this is barely guessing:

 

Dbl - 2C; (take-out, 17+ -- 0-7 and natural)

2D - 2S; (extras and natural -- artificial GF)

3C - 3H; (some support -- cue bid (5-4 would probably bid 3H instead of 2S))

3S - 4H; (cue, slam interest -- first control)

4S - 6C; (first control -- if partner has slam interest even though I have no diamond control...)

 

I might be biased because I see both hands though. It is possible that we end up in 5C or 3NT.

[PrecisionL]

Upgraded Ultra Club Relay (C3)

 

1♣ - 1♦ (1♠)

X = extra hcp or 2 places to play - 2♣ = 5+ hcp and ♣ -

2♠ = 1 round force - 2NT -

3♣ = Beta - 3♦ = 1-2 controls -

3♥ = CAB - 4♣ = A♥ -

6♣ All Pass

[Zelandakh]

Upgraded Ultra Club Relay (C3)

X = extra hcp or 2 places to play - 2♣ = 5+ hcp and ♣ -

How many clubs does this show? and what is the response with 0-4 and clubs?

[PrecisionL]

Upgraded Ultra Club Relay (C3)

X = extra hcp or 2 places to play - 2♣ = 5+ hcp and ♣ -

How many clubs does this show? and what is the response with 0-4 and clubs?

 

We play Herbert Negative over take-out doubles, so responder would rebid 1NT with 0-4 hcp with any amount of clubs, and would show the clubs, if appropriate, on the next round. Thus 2♣ is semi-positive, but opener could pass with a minimum.