Deal #8

[straube]

South is dealer. Vul vs vul. Imps. If RHO can overcall 1S, he will...unless North shows spades.

 

................T963

................A6

................T3

................QT974

J84...............................KQ752

Q842............................JT5

985..............................T64

A8................................A8

................A

................K973

................AKQJ2

................KJ2

 

Outcomes

 

6C S SCREAM

5C S Precision by Free, 6C?

6C S Meckwell Lite

6C S New Big Club

6C S Zelandakh, 5C?

6C S relknes, 5C?

5C S Polish Club, 6C?

5C S Silent Club, 6C?

6C S TOSR

 

Moscito auction is incomplete

[straube]

South is dealer. Vul vs vul. Imps. If RHO can overcall 1S, he will...unless North shows spades.

 

................T963

................A6

................T3

................QT974

?.....................................?

?.....................................?

?.....................................?

?.....................................?

................A

................K973

................AKQJ2

................KJ2

 

SCREAM

 

1C-1H (1S) 16+, 2-4 QPs

dbl-3C takeout, invitational w/ 5+ clubs

3S-4C clubs and NT in focus, no stopper

4D-4H RKC, 1

4S-5C Q ask, yes but no SK (already implied)

6C

 

 

Here's why I'm bidding optimistically. Our double tends to be takeout oriented. We have Rubensohl and Leaping Michaels which are ways to deal with very directional hands. The double tends to be more flexible and tolerant of anything partner may bid. I actually think 3C is rather ordinary because 1) responder is expecting takeout shape and can announce the only likely fit and 2) responder has 4 QPs which is the top of his QP range and 3) the bid is only invitational (he would cue with extra jacks or shape) and 4) the suit has some interiors.

 

After 3C, I don't see much purpose in clouding the issue with diamonds. We expect at least a 5-cd club suit, especially as we've shown values already with our 1H bid. 3S is primarily to rule out 3N should responder have a wasted spade card. 3S means that we are focused on NT or clubs as opener had GF diamond or heart bids available.

 

After RKC, I know that partner has either the HA or the CA as well as the CQ. I can pretty much count 12 tricks.

 

Feel free to critique my auction.

[Free]

For the record, according to the given info our auction starts with 1♣-1♦-(1♠)-Dbl-3♣.

 

The question is what's 3♣? For us, partner can't have an invitational hand with a good 6 card ♣ (otherwise the auction starts 1♣-3♣). This makes slam a lot less likely. Also I don't think partner should jump on a 4 card suit, even if he's max, because opener can show extra strength later on anyway. So that makes me think 3♣ should show a max hand with a decent 5 card ♣ or a poor 6 card suit.

 

I'd start with 3♠. If partner bids 3NT I'll stop there. If he rebids 4♣ I'll just raise to 5♣. Perhaps I'm too pessimistic, dunno. Looking forward to read other posters' opinions. :)

 

Note: post is based on knowledge of only the South hand

[relknes]

For us the auction starts

 

1♣-1♦-(1♠)

X - 3♣

3♦ - ?

 

This is influenced by the fact that 1♦ was 0-8 points and 3♣ by shows 6-8 points with a decent 5 card suit or any 6+ suit.

Doubling and bidding a new suit after a strong club shows a very strong hand (usually 20+ HCP or 0-3 losing tricks) with a very good 5+ suit.

If partner signs off at 3N, I will pass since there are wasted values in spades (that would sow a hand with spades stopped for NT, leaving partner with 3-5 working points). If partner bids hearts, I am going to cuebid spades to agree to hearts and start slam investigation. If partner cuebids spades asking for a spade stopper, I would bid 4♣, agreeing to clubs and asking partner to start reverse-cuebidding.

If partner raises diamonds I will start reverse cuebidding, and we will probably end up at slam in diamonds. If partner rebids clubs, I will cuebid 4♠, agreeing to clubs and they will reverse-cuebid (they will bid 4N without 2 of the top 3 trump, or 5♣ to show 2 of the top 3 trump and no outside first round controls, and anything else is impossible unless they have a void somewhere)

[dake50]

Out of this one as I open 1D: 14-17 bal OR a RED-SUIT FORCE.

[antonylee]

Beginning will be different in Polish club as 3♣ would show one of the (Polish) semipositives included in the 1♦ response: 9-11 with 6 poor clubs (but likely not (322)6). So I guess we'll start 1♣-1♦ (1♠); X-2♣; 2♦-??? If partner bids 2♥ I'll splinter with 3♠, if partner bids 2♠ I'll bid 3♦ I guess (suggesting trumps; if partner doesn't raise and doesn't bid 3N I'll suggest clubs next); if partner bids 2N I'll raise to 3 (same remark as dake50 about spade wastage); if partner bid 3♣ I'll raise to four (technically he could still have a 3325 yarborough or so, so that sucks a little bit... perhaps 3♣ should be weak here? with stronger hands going through 2♠. In which case I'll bid 3N over 3♣.).

[rbforster]

Silent Club:

 

Semi positive hands with a good 6+ suit, say AQxxxx♣ in this case, will make a positive response showing that suit (here 1♠ = ♣ or balanced). If this is partners hand, we'll have an uncontested relay auction showing exact shape and then continue with a slam investigation probably via RKC ♣. For example,

 

1♣-1♠ strong; ♣ or bal, usually GF

1N-2♣ relay; clubs one suited, might not be a GF

2♥-...-3♥ strong relay; 6322 for example with known suits

4♣... RKC1430 in clubs and maybe control asks after

... 6N probably or 6♣ if shape indicates diamonds arent running.

 

At this point we should be able to count 6♣,5♦,1♠ and just check for the A♥ (missing presumably given the conditions 0-7 on responder, but opener here Won't know that since he used the strong relay and repsonder could still have a true GF not just semi positive). Assuming a more indifferent hand for responder, we'll have a more typical auction:

 

1♣-1♦-(1♠) strong; most 0-7, some GFs

X-3♣ takeout; invitational 5 card suit or poor 6+ suit (GF hands would have cued or bid 3N)

3♠-?

...3N or 5♣

 

If responder bids 3N, I'll sit for it although it'll be wrong sided for hearts I guess. If responder has nothing in spades, we'll try the club game and hope he's got enough values or shortness to cover our heart losers.

 

Edit for the updated North hand. Our auction continues

 

3♠-4♣

5♣

 

Not sure if South is worth an optimistic cue of 4D here to see what North will say.

[JLOGIC]

South is dealer. Vul vs vul. Imps.

 

Your hand...A K973 AKQJ2 KJ2

 

Lots of potential for resulting on this hand. Imprecision will have a very different auction and I think Adam and Sieong will do better to stop reading this thread until I edit this paragraph and say when they'll be safe from bias. They'll have a very different auction.

 

Scroll down aways if you aren't bidding Imprecision...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, for those who respond 1D (0-7) or possibly (0-7), you'll have a 1S bid on your right. I think most Precision players will double (takeout or strong) with South's hand. If they do so, partner will bid 3C. How do you rebid after this? What's your plan? The issue I think is that you have a likely game or slam in clubs if partner has a suit, but not so much if he has some scattered values and only four clubs. If partner has only four clubs, you might be better off in a diamond game or 3N. Does opener rebid 3D? 3S? Raise clubs? RKC clubs?

 

3C is not a possible bid with a 4 card suit imo. My first instinct was to keycard and bid slam opposite 1 and the queen, but I guess 3s is more prudent (if partner does have a 3N bid, we don't have a slam). However, there is a risk partner bids 4D in which case I can no longer keycard in clubs which is a problem (and I still want to play clubs rather than diamonds in order to rightside the hand.

 

The other problem is we have communication issues opposite AQxxx and out if partner has no minor suit ten. I'm willing to take that risk though, we can still hook a heart if he has a doubleton heart and try to ruff back to his hand, etc.

 

Anyways, I'd probably go with 3S planning to pass 3N (the failure to raise spades worries me), and keycard over 4C, 4S over 4D (I think partner will drive it home with the AQ of clubs), and 5C over 4H.

 

ETA: By keycard I mean 4D over clubs fwiw

[relknes]

By the way, straube, I kind of like not being able to see the other hands. Even though it makes the explanations a bit more difficult and long winded than a simple bidding sequence, I like knowing that I am not just resulting (I always try not to, but it is hard to know for sure when everything is right in front of me).

[straube]

By the way, straube, I kind of like not being able to see the other hands. Even though it makes the explanations a bit more difficult and long winded than a simple bidding sequence, I like knowing that I am not just resulting (I always try not to, but it is hard to know for sure when everything is right in front of me).

 

ok. I think what I will do is post the north and south hands initially and then add the east and west hands later.

[Hilver]

Hilversumse Klaveren (HK)

 

1♣ - (P) - 1♦ - (1♠)

dbl - (p) - 3♣ - (p)

3♠ - (p) - 4♣ - (p)

4♦ - (p) - 4♥ - (pass)

4NT - (p) - 5♣ - (p)

5♦ - (p) - 5♠ - (p)

6♣

 

1♦ = relay

dbl = take out

3♣ = 4+ card ♣, not a bare minimum

3♠ = forcing, strong

4♣ = no second suit, no stopper in spades, 5+ card ♣

4♦ = cue

4♥ = cue

4NT = RKC

5♣ = 1 keycard

5♦ = asking bid for queen of clubs

5♠ = ♣Q Edit: and not a king in one of the other suits!

Jan

[Zelandakh]

It is clear for me to sell the South hand as an Acol 2 in diamonds. But having done so, slam looks a long way off from the North side. Is T9xx a good enough stopper for 3NT? Probably not but if North does not bid 3NT now then we probably end up going past it. Of course, if we do bypass then we should reach slam since the North hand has suddenly grown up a lot. Overall, I am not proud of the auction and would expect to languish in 3NT at least some of the time when it is wrong. It is certainly less convincing than most of the others.

 

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any

... - 1♦ = most non-GF

(1♠)

2♦ = Acol 2 in a minor

... - 2♥ = positive without 4 hearts

3♦ = nat, denies 4 clubs or 4 spades

... - 3♥ = general force (a simple 3NT is the alternative)

4♣ = nat, 3 good clubs

... - 4♥ = RKCB

4NT = 0 or 3

... - 6♣

[JLOGIC]

1C 1D (1S)

X 3C

3S 4C

4D 4H (RKC, 1)

4S 6C (queen ask, yes and nothing extra)

[rbforster]

I think with the given North hand, I might be tempted to bid 1N in response to the double. Jumping to 3♣ with a soft 5 bagged seems wasteful, and T9xx might be enough of a stopper for 1N (and there's space to cue again if opener was worried).

[straube]

I think with the given North hand, I might be tempted to bid 1N in response to the double. Jumping to 3♣ with a soft 5 bagged seems wasteful, and T9xx might be enough of a stopper for 1N (and there's space to cue again if opener was worried).

 

That's fine. Without resulting, I think that leads to 3N. If I were South I don't think I would imagine 6 hcps outside spades and slam is fairly thin anyway. I think I would rebid 2D (forcing) in order to make sure we didn't have an heart fit and then bid 3N over a 3C rebid. I have a stopper, too. What would your auction be?

 

I think that we should go with the group consensus when our system is in a similar situation to others. We want to get rid of personal judgment because we're not comparing personal judgment but system effectiveness. I think that your system is in a similar place here to those that use 1D as 0-7 and most North's are rebidding 3C here. I think Zelandakh has a different auction because he feels strongly that South should rebid 2D and not double....and that feels more of a system difference to me.

[straube]

It is clear for me to sell the South hand as an Acol 2 in diamonds. But having done so, slam looks a long way off from the North side. Is T9xx a good enough stopper for 3NT? Probably not but if North does not bid 3NT now then we probably end up going past it. Of course, if we do bypass then we should reach slam since the North hand has suddenly grown up a lot. Overall, I am not proud of the auction and would expect to languish in 3NT at least some of the time when it is wrong. It is certainly less convincing than most of the others.

 

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any

... - 1♦ = most non-GF

(1♠)

2♦ = Acol 2 in a minor

... - 2♥ = positive without 4 hearts

3♦ = nat, denies 4 clubs or 4 spades

... - 3♥ = general force (a simple 3NT is the alternative)

4♣ = nat, 3 good clubs

... - 4♥ = RKCB

4NT = 0 or 3

... - 6♣

 

I think you should reconsider and reach 3N. Won't opener, having decided to represent his hand as a red hand, at least inquire to see whether North has a spade stopper before going past 3N? What if North has Jxxx Qxx xx Axxx? Over 3H I imagine 3S is looking for direction and with North's actual hand I'd hope South had a partial stop or that the suit was blocked and bid 3N. Even RobF is tempted to bid 1N on the go with this. How do you and others feel?

[hrothgar]

I'm going to insert the MOSCITO auction in a minute. Before I do so, I want to advance a new and potentially controversial idea.

 

After the auction 1♣ - (P) - 1♥ - (1♠), use opener's pass as if it were the normal 1♠ relay.

 

Use a direct seat double to suggest penalty and a 1NT overcall for takeout double hands.

(This is slightly different than I suggested the other day)

 

All and all, I think that it should work a bit better.

 

With this hand, opener will chose to pass (starting the relay) and we'll have a simple relay to 6♣

[Zelandakh]

I suspect that is a feature of this hand, that a small change might lead to 3NT on the one hand or 6m on the other. In other words, I am not sure this is a good hand for DD bidding because it is very difficult to be completely objective knowing that the slam is good, as hard as we all try to be. As an example of how close this probably is, almost every auction so far looks like it will finish in 3NT if we change North's ♠3 to the ♠J. Or have I misread that?

[Zelandakh]

I think you should reconsider and reach 3N. Won't opener, having decided to represent his hand as a red hand, at least inquire to see whether North has a spade stopper before going past 3N? What if North has Jxxx Qxx xx Axxx? Over 3H I imagine 3S is looking for direction and with North's actual hand I'd hope South had a partial stop or that the suit was blocked and bid 3N. Even RobF is tempted to bid 1N on the go with this. How do you and others feel?

I found this hand really difficult. I can see ending up in 3NT sometimes and 6♣ others. The problem with 3♠ over 3♥ is that this ought to show 3 spades. I realise that is not optimal but the philosophy is basically to ignore their bidding if we can in order to make the competitive agreements as simple as possible. This is why 3NT from Responder the round before is so tempting. Indeed, with the hand given (♠Jxxx) I am sure that 3NT would be bid. And as I suggested in the previous post, I am pretty sure that this would also be the case with the original hand with the ♠J added, where slam is obviously still good.

 

In other words, while the auction is reasonable for these exact hands I think any small change leads to a different spot, which may or may not be good. It is the fact that these small changes lead to radically different end spots that makes this hand so difficult to bid double dummy.

[straube]

deleted

[straube]

I'm going to insert the MOSCITO auction in a minute. Before I do so, I want to advance a new and potentially controversial idea.

 

After the auction 1♣ - (P) - 1♥ - (1♠), use opener's pass as if it were the normal 1♠ relay.

 

Use a direct seat double to suggest penalty and a 1NT overcall for takeout double hands.

(This is slightly different than I suggested the other day)

 

All and all, I think that it should work a bit better.

 

With this hand, opener will chose to pass (starting the relay) and we'll have a simple relay to 6♣

 

 

I've been working that problem, too. But what then to do with a strong NT?

 

I've thought....

.....P-spades or strong NT, invites dbl with xx or 1N with shortness

.....dbl-relay ask, responder may pass with spades

.....1N-takeout

[straube]

deleted

[Zelandakh]

Let us help you be objective. How does your auction proceed and where are the forks in the road where you need help?

Hehe, well up to 3♦ is certain and I would expect this start every time. North cannot bid an immediate 3♣ here as that is required as a negative (pass/correct). After 3♦ North has to decide whether their spade holding is good enough for 3NT, or whether they should try to get extra information with a 3♥ bid. 3♠ instead would be natural. If North bids 3NT then South will pass. Over 3♥, South's duty is to describe their hand naturally, so 4♣ is the only reasonable bid and I think this leads to slam.

 

The key decision with the North hand is close. With ♠JTxx and slam seemingly bad, I think 3NT is going to be bid almost every time. With ♠T9xx it is trickier. In essence, this is a not dissimilar decision to the one in the 16+ auctions. Is the spade stop or the club suit the more important feature? In the end, I am woking on the basis that if partner does not have ♠Hx or ♠xxx, then a minor may well be as good as 3NT. And if partner does have such a spade holding then 3NT is still available. Similarly if partner has 3 good clubs. The problem case is when partner has none of these. Then we are basically committed to 5♦. That is a definite risk here. The more I think through it, the more convinced I am that this risk is justified. But at the table I tend to be a lot more fond of 3NT...

[straube]

Hehe, well up to 3♦ is certain and I would expect this start every time. North cannot bid an immediate 3♣ here as that is required as a negative (pass/correct). After 3♦ North has to decide whether their spade holding is good enough for 3NT, or whether they should try to get extra information with a 3♥ bid. 3♠ instead would be natural. If North bids 3NT then South will pass. Over 3♥, South's duty is to describe their hand naturally, so 4♣ is the only reasonable bid and I think this leads to slam.

 

The key decision with the North hand is close. With ♠JTxx and slam seemingly bad, I think 3NT is going to be bid almost every time. With ♠T9xx it is trickier. In essence, this is a not dissimilar decision to the one in the 16+ auctions. Is the spade stop or the club suit the more important feature? In the end, I am woking on the basis that if partner does not have ♠Hx or ♠xxx, then a minor may well be as good as 3NT. And if partner does have such a spade holding then 3NT is still available. Similarly if partner has 3 good clubs. The problem case is when partner has none of these. Then we are basically committed to 5♦. That is a definite risk here. The more I think through it, the more convinced I am that this risk is justified. But at the table I tend to be a lot more fond of 3NT...

 

I still think you don't reach slam. North has an awful time not knowing that South has the CJ and that there are 5 likely running diamonds in South's hand. My vote is no and at best you reach 5C. It's fine if we disagree, but let's get input from others.

[hrothgar]

I've been working that problem, too. But what then to do with a strong NT?

 

You relay with a strong NT, intending to break relay the next round