Fluffy Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 maybe for you, I don't play FSF by opener. This doesn't mean I won't bid it with the same hand as you, just that I will call it a descriptive bid. The concept of opener asking on uncontested bidding is alien to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jogs Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 If every fourth suit is forcing. How do you bid this hand? 1♦ - 1♠, 2♣ - ? ♠ K6542 ♥ K9852 ♦ 8 ♣ 76. The main need for 4SF is to distinguish 3 from 4 card support in a major.1♣ - 1♦, 1♠ - ?. 12+ points with 3 spades is an awkward hand to bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 If every fourth suit is forcing. How do you bid this hand? 1♦ - 1♠, 2♣ - ? ♠ K6542 ♥ K9852 ♦ 8 ♣ 76.FSF certainly applies in this situaton so you have to bid 2♠ with this hand.The main need for 4SF is to distinguish 3 from 4 card support in a major.No. 3-card support when opener almost certainly doesn't have five is not a problem. The main purpose of FSF is to make a forcing bid available to responder in situations where other bids below game are non-forcing. Anyway this doesn't belong in the expert forum so let's get back on topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellSpyder Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 FSF certainly applies in this situaton so you have to bid 2♠ with this hand.I certainly agree with the first half of your sentence, but not necessarily the second. I think Pass and 2♦ are also possible bids. The bids I would never consider are 2♥, as apparently advocated by jogs, or 2NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 1♦ - 1♠, 2♣ - ? ♠ K6542 ♥ K9852 ♦ 8 ♣ 76.Funnily enough, my system does not use 4th suit forcing here so I have the same solution as you suggest available. That is only because 1♠ specifically shows a weak hand though. Playing normal methods you just have to sign off in the strain that seems like the best bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jogs Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 ♠K6542 ♥K9852 ♦8 ♣76. FSF certainly applies in this situaton so you have to bid 2♠ with this hand. Anyway this doesn't belong in the expert forum so let's get back on topic. So you're telling me that1=4=4=4 facing 5=5=1=2the bidding should go1♦-1♠, 2♣-2♠.Neither player is allowed to show hearts with their5-4 fit and this dilemma doesn't belong in the expertforum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 (edited) disregard. Thought we were in a reverse auction. Edited February 1, 2013 by aguahombre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 So you're telling me that1=4=4=4 facing 5=5=1=2the bidding should go1♦-1♠, 2♣-2♠.Nah, the bidding should go:1♦ = 4+ diamonds, unbal... - 1♠ = weak, 4+ spades1NT = 4 hearts... - 2/3♥ = to play/invite Obviously! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 ♠K6542 ♥K9852 ♦8 ♣76. So you're telling me that1=4=4=4 facing 5=5=1=2the bidding should go1♦-1♠, 2♣-2♠.Many players would rebid 1NT on a 1444 shape, partly to avoid losing a heart fit and partly to avoid playing a 4-2 diamond fit. Neither player is allowed to show hearts with their5-4 fit and this dilemma doesn't belong in the expertforum.I expect this dilemma was discussed extensively in the 1950s, when FSF was invented. We can't always rely on the majority to be right, but the fact that FSF was adopted by almost everyone suggests that there is merit in the convention. As with all artificial methods, the cost of playing FSF is that you can no longer use the bid naturally. This has to be weighed against the benefits on other hands, which include:- Being able to make a low-level forcing bid.- Being able to ask partner to describe his hand, instead of making a misdescriptive bid yourself.- Playing 3NT from the right side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adebisi Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 If guess Reverse Flannery response to 1D was invented to solve this problem , to let responder to bid 2H with 4+H/5+s and 5-9 hcp so that opener have to choose between majors , but not responder have to choose between passing 2c or bid 2s with 5512, because 2H is 4th suit forsing:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 The much maligned Mini-Roman opening bid solves the problem of certain continuation dilemmas, as well. We have pretty much all agreed on multiple threads that all 4x1 hands of various strengths are a PITA in the bidding and usually awkward in the play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jogs Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 I have no aversion to rebidding 1NT with 1=3=5=4 or 1=4=4=4. With 15+ HCP 1NT isn't a viable option. FSF is really a convention to facilitate major suit bidding. Most bidding systems aren't designed for minors. Major suits are too valuable to squander as artificial. 1♣-1♦, 1♥-1♠ and 1♦-1♠,2♣-2♥ should both be natural. We can ill afford to lose a major suit. 5=5=1=2. ♠Q8642 ♥KQT93 ♦5 ♣75.1♦-1♠, 2♣-2♠???? I refuse to play any system which requires responder to bid spades and rebid spades with this hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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