straube Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 You are South and 2nd seat. Unfavorable. IMPs. Uncontested auction ................J9852................void................J76................AT962K74............................63Q982..........................AJT48532...........................KT9K5...............................8743................AQT................K7653................AQ4................QJ Outcomes 4S S SCREAM4S N Relknes4S S Meckwell Light4S S Precision by Free 4S S OC Precision4S N Moscito4S S IMPrecision4S S Polish Club4S N Silent Club4S N Zelandakh4S S Jasmine Club4S N dake504S S tosr 4S S New Big Club (1N opening) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted January 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 You are South and 2nd seat. Unfavorable. IMPs. Uncontested auction ................J9852................void................J76................AT962K74............................63Q982..........................AJT48532...........................KT9K5...............................8743................AQT................K7653................AQ4................QJ SCREAM bids this as... 1C-1H, 16+, 2-4 QPs any shape (a good 4+ hcps)1N-2H, 17-18 possibly unbalanced, transfer2S-3C, declined to super-accept, invitational 5/54S Atul offers... 1C-1H, 16+, 2-4 QPs any shape (a good 4+ hcps)1N-2H, 17-18 possibly unbalanced, transfer3S, 4S super-accepting Our best auctions after 1C-1H are when opener can rebid 1S (GF relay) or 1N (when opener is balanced) or 2C (when opener is balanced with 19 or 20). Other auctions are often awkward and are why we're looking at other systems. On this deal, opener has the flexibility to reject the transfer with shortness (e.g. 1345) because responder has shown some values. He can also super-accept. Atul and I judge differently on this one. I like the three spades and maximum and dislike the QJ of clubs. I also expect responder to take another call with a 6 count most of the time so I just accept the transfer. Fortunately, responder has an invitational hand and we get to game. Atul's auction makes for an easy acceptance by responder. We use a different NT structure for both passed hands and semipositives and have no way to force with clubs. I don't think this is much of a loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relknes Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 You are South and 2nd seat. Unfavorable. IMPs. Uncontested auction ................J9852................void................J76................AT962K74............................63Q982..........................AJT48532...........................KT9T5...............................8743................AQT................K7653................AQ4................QJ 1♣ - 1♦1♥ - 1♠1N - 2♣2♠ - 4♠ Then west calls a misdeal when he sees that he and north both have the 10 of clubs, and there is no K of clubs anywhere... But anyways...Translation:S: 16+, N: 0-8S: 16-21 points, 4+ hearts, N: 5-8 points, 4+ spadesS: 16-18 balanced, N: 5+ spades and 4+ clubsS: simple preference, N: to play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 1C 1D (16+ 0-7)1N 2H (17-18, transfer)2S 2N (completing transfer, clubs)4S Some debatable decisions, south could rebid 1H (I usually rebid a 5 card major, but the hand seems NTy with a bad suit. FWIW there is a split here, Greco-Hampson always rebid 1N with 5332, but I think Rodwell said usually bidding 1M is better, so that's what I and my partners do). North could also just bid 2C then 2S for an invite with spades but I think the hand is worth showing the clubs vul at imps and increasing the chance of getting to the right game. Spades, clubs, or diamonds could all easily be right. It doesn't matter on this hand as south would accept the game try in spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted January 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Thx. Corrected it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted January 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 1C 1D (16+ 0-7)1N 2H (17-18, transfer)2S 2N (completing transfer, clubs)4S Some debatable decisions, south could rebid 1H (I usually rebid a 5 card major, but the hand seems NTy with a bad suit. FWIW there is a split here, Greco-Hampson always rebid 1N with 5332, but I think Rodwell said usually bidding 1M is better, so that's what I and my partners do). North could also just bid 2C then 2S for an invite with spades but I think the hand is worth showing the clubs vul at imps and increasing the chance of getting to the right game. Spades, clubs, or diamonds could all easily be right. It doesn't matter on this hand as south would accept the game try in spades. I'd be curious to see a 1C-1H, 1S continuation. My understanding is that 1S handles most hands with 0-7 hcps, 4+ spades and fewer than four hearts (I think the except with 4S/3H). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 1C 1D1H 1S1N 3C3S 4S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 This one requires some evaluation and it's always hard not to result. The obvious start for us is 1♣-1♦-1NT. Now North should determine if he has a GF hand or an invite. It's borderline imo. After a GF, it's obvious to get to 4♠, but after an invite I'm not sure South should accept. Basically it could go several ways. I always count my losers in borderline cases where all other evaluation tools fail to make a clear decision. North has 8 of them and should expect 6 or less in the South hand, which is enough to GF. 1♣-1♦ (16+ any ; 0-7 any or GF any 4441)1NT-2♥ (17-18 balanced ; transfer, 5+♠, weak or GF)2♠-2NT (normal accept ; GF, 4+♣)3♥-4♠ (fit ♠, bad hand for slam ; signoff) In case you're interested, when North would invite:1♣-1♦ (16+ any ; 0-7 any or GF any 4441)1NT-2♣ (17-18 balanced ; starts as Stayman)2♥-2♠ (4-5♥ ; INV with 5♠)pass/3♠/4♠? (how do you value ♣QJ? ; if opener bids 3♠ North should bid game imo)Note: when opener would reject the invite by bidding 2NT, responder can bid 3♣ showing 5-5. So that's also not an argument to GF ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Note: when opener would reject the invite by bidding 2NT, responder can bid 3♣ showing 5-5. So that's also not an argument to GF ;) I don't think 2N should be rejecting, when you are rejecting an invite you should pass. You'd much rather play 2S in a 5-2 fit than correct to 2N and play 2N. To me, that is the main advantage in having 2C then 2S be an invite, being able to play 2S is a big winner. Personally I play that 2N is a max with 2 trumps since I would always pass with a min. A lot of the time partner has the shapely invite he is not looking to play 3N, so bidding 2N with a max is useful when partner is 5-5 and you can still play 3 of the minor (and if he's not and has a 3N bid over 2N, nothing lost). I also don't get why you would consider rejecting a spade invite with the south hand. You have the top of your range and AQT of spades which must be good. Sure, the QJ of clubs might not be great but you also have a ruffing value, a 5 card suit, etc. I think it is overthinking it to reject an invite in spades with a 3532 18 count when you have shown 17-18 bal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhare Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Atul offers... 1C-1H, 16+, 2-4 QPs any shape (a good 4+ hcps)1N-2H, 17-18 possibly unbalanced, transfer3S, 4S super-accepting Our best auctions after 1C-1H are when opener can rebid 1S (GF relay) or 1N (when opener is balanced) or 2C (when opener is balanced with 19 or 20). Other auctions are often awkward and are why we're looking at other systems. On this deal, opener has the flexibility to reject the transfer with shortness (e.g. 1345) because responder has shown some values. He can also super-accept. Atul and I judge differently on this one. I like the three spades and maximum and dislike the QJ of clubs. I also expect responder to take another call with a 6 count most of the time so I just accept the transfer. Fortunately, responder has an invitational hand and we get to game. Atul's auction makes for an easy acceptance by responder. Another reason to super-accept might be that opener might been end played into bidding 1N with say a stiff ♠. Also, responder's ability to make another call with a 6-count might not be as clear cut, especially with hands that aren't as shapely as the one in question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted January 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 I don't think 2N should be rejecting, when you are rejecting an invite you should pass. You'd much rather play 2S in a 5-2 fit than correct to 2N and play 2N. To me, that is the main advantage in having 2C then 2S be an invite, being able to play 2S is a big winner. Personally I play that 2N is a max with 2 trumps since I would always pass with a min. A lot of the time partner has the shapely invite he is not looking to play 3N, so bidding 2N with a max is useful when partner is 5-5 and you can still play 3 of the minor (and if he's not and has a 3N bid over 2N, nothing lost). We do that, too. Learned it from Meckwell but not sure if they invented it. 2N is a courtesy bid to encourage shapely invites with 5/5s. Like them, we also play 1N-2D, 2H-2S is a GI in hearts so responder can get out in 3m if opener has a 2-fit minimum and rebids 2N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted January 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Another reason to super-accept might be that opener might been end played into bidding 1N with say a stiff ♠. Also, responder's ability to make another call with a 6-count might not be as clear cut, especially with hands that aren't as shapely as the one in question. Not accepting a transfer with a stiff if I know responder has some values. 2N should have some play. Thought we were agreed on that, but we can discuss it offline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FM75 Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 You are South and 2nd seat. Unfavorable. IMPs. Uncontested auction ................J9852................void................J76................AT962 ................AQT................K7653................AQ4................QJ1♣ - 1N should be 8+ and 5+ ♠ - judgment upgrade2♣ - 2♦ 0-22♠ - 2N trump asking, no top honors 5+ length.3♥ - 4♥ control ask in hearts, first round - void or Axx(x)4♠ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted January 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 1♣ - 1N should be 8+ and 5+ ♠ - judgment upgrade2♣ - 2♦ 0-22♠ - 2N trump asking, no top honors 5+ length.3♥ - 4♥ control ask in hearts, first round - void or Axx(x)4♠ 0-2 controls I assume. I think it would be better if you started with 1D 0-7 like others are doing. Whenever possible, I think we should try to take judgment out of the equation because this is about system comparison. How do you and others feel about that? Btw, the knr on opener's hand is 16.75 and the DK is 18- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Here's the MOSCITO auction 1♣ - 2♣ 2♣ shows a semi positive with 5+ Spades and either (4+ Hearts or 4+ Clubs)2♦ - 2♠ 2♦ is a relay and 2♠ shows the Black suits3♠ - 4♠ If responder showed the majors, opener would GF. However, once responder shows the Black suits, I think that opener is only work a game invite. Responder has a fairly minimal 2♣, however, I think the hand is worth accepting a game invite. 1. Opener has more than a dead minimum (He chose to relay rather than bidding 2♠)2. Responder has an Ace, 5-5 shape, and a void. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Some debatable decisions, south could rebid 1H (I usually rebid a 5 card major, but the hand seems NTy with a bad suit. FWIW there is a split here, Greco-Hampson always rebid 1N with 5332, but I think Rodwell said usually bidding 1M is better, so that's what I and my partners do). Over 1♠ if you rebid a minor is it ambiguous which is longer? I'm curious since I only learned the other way where you rebid 1NT with four hearts, a minor with five hearts, and you can't rebid 1♥ because of that with 5332. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted January 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Here's the MOSCITO auction 1♣ - 2♣ 2♣ shows a semi positive with 5+ Spades and either (4+ Hearts or 4+ Clubs)2♦ - 2♠ 2♦ is a relay and 2♠ shows the Black suits3♠ - 4♠ If responder showed the majors, opener would GF. However, once responder shows the Black suits, I think that opener is only work a game invite. Responder has a fairly minimal 2♣, however, I think the hand is worth accepting a game invite. 1. Opener has more than a dead minimum (He chose to relay rather than bidding 2♠)2. Responder has an Ace, 5-5 shape, and a void. Moscito had a difficult decision on a prior thread when the bidding started 1C-2C because the bid is a bit preemptive to our side as well as the opponents. I'm wondering if it can afford a 2N rebid as invitational and a 2D rebid as invitational+. For example, what would opener's plan be for A KQxx AKxxx xxx vs AQ Kxxx AQxx QJ? I would want to rebid 2N on the first hand to avoid getting too high opposite a potential misfit. On the second hand I would want to relay once and then rebid 3S to show an invitational hand with a doubleton. With the hand in question I think 1C-2C, 3S to guarantee a fit and an invitational hand, missing out on hearts occasionally unless responder can mention them on the way to game in spades. If I were responder and heard 1C-2C, 2D-2S, 3S I would pass fearing we were on a 5-2 fit. Maybe you can explain more about the continuations and relay breaks here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Over 1♠ if you rebid a minor is it ambiguous which is longer? I'm curious since I only learned the other way where you rebid 1NT with four hearts, a minor with five hearts, and you can't rebid 1♥ because of that with 5332. Yes I play it as ambiguous. Rebidding 1H causes some problems, like the one you mentioned, and also over 1N you pass which Hampson says is bad since partner might have like a 7 card minor or w/e. To me it is analagous to playing semi forcing NT instead of forcing NT though, but there is more risk in this auction probably. Also, the auction I mentioned 1C 1D 1H 1S 3C is more dangerous since responder has 4-5 spades. This is not a problem if your 1N rebid is 35(32) but it is a problem for me since I can have that shape. Arguably I should just raise with 35(32) so that the 1N rebid denies 3 spades. And of course, you might wrongside NT. All that said, you gain a lot rebidding 1M with 5M332 imo, since it is likely a partscore deal after 1C p 1D you really don't want to miss a 5-4 major suit fit, and it is possible you miss a game when responder has a 3M bid over 1M but a pass over 1N (like 4 trumps and a stiff). I think either way is fine and that is why there is a split among the good MW light pairs, I have been happier since I have switched to typically bidding 1M though. I still bid 1N on hands like this though (soft/NTy, and bad suits), but I probably bid 1M like 85 % of the time. FWIW even my partners are split, I think Kevin likes bidding 1N and does that a majority of the time, and I have never seen Joe bid 1N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 IMprecision: 1♣ - 1♥ (strong, 4+spade with 5+ hcp 2-6RP)1♠ - 2♣ (3+♠ or 5+♥ or GF, 4+♣ unbal)2♠ - 4♠ (3♠ and min, worth game w/fit)Pass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonylee Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Polish club:1♣-1♦ (Polish; 0-8 (no 4cM if 7-8) or 9-11 with a bad minor or both minors or 12-16 balanced, intending to be dummy in 3NT opposite a WNT)1N-2♥ (18-20; transfer 0-6)2♠-3♣ (natural invite)4♠ or if North is deemed worth of a positive (my hand evaluation sucks :)):1♣-1♠ (7+)2♦-3♥ (18+ 3+♠ not highly unbalanced; exactly 5 spades, 7-10 unbalanced)3N-4♣ (side suit?; clubs) (not sure whether it's really worth asking but a priori parter could still have K9xxx Ax KTxxx x for a decent slam)4♠ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbforster Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Silent Club: 1♣-1♦ strong; most 0-7, some GFs1♥-1♠ artificial most minimums; artificial 0-71N-2♥ 16-18 bal including 5M332; transfer 5+♠2♠-3♣ completed; natural unbalanced invitational NF4♠-P Opener has a max with 3 good spades so accepting seems clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 #07. You are South and 2nd seat. Unfavorable. IMPs. Uncontested auction Jasmine Club:North ♠ J9852 ♥- ♦ J76 ♣ AT962: -- 2♥ 3♥South ♠ AQT ♥ K7653 ♦ AQ4 ♣ QJ: 1♣ 2♠ 4♠1♣ = 16+ Artificial2♥ = Weak two-suiter not ♥ (2N would have shown a weak 2-suiter including ♥).2♠ = Pass/correct (2N would have asked for the suit above the other shortage).3♥ = Art, Max with ♠ (2N would have shown a max with the minors).4♠ = Nat.Marks, IMO: 4♠ = 10. 5♠ = 7. 5♣ = 5. Partscores = 4. 3N = 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Silent Club: 1♣-1♦ strong; most 0-7, some GFs1♥-1♠ artificial most minimums; artificial 0-71N-2♥ 16-18 bal including 5M332; transfer 5+♠2♠-3♣ completed; natural unbalanced invitational NF4♠-P Opener has a max with 3 good spades so accepting seems clear. 1C 1D1H 1S as any 0-7 seems kinda bad to me. Is it not? (It feels confrontational but I don't mean it as such, it just seems bad for partscore bidding but I have no experience with it, further clarification would be cool). In particular, maybe the GF hands should bid 1S and the 0-7 hands should bid 1N + ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 I don't think 2N should be rejecting, when you are rejecting an invite you should pass. You'd much rather play 2S in a 5-2 fit than correct to 2N and play 2N. To me, that is the main advantage in having 2C then 2S be an invite, being able to play 2S is a big winner. Personally I play that 2N is a max with 2 trumps since I would always pass with a min. A lot of the time partner has the shapely invite he is not looking to play 3N, so bidding 2N with a max is useful when partner is 5-5 and you can still play 3 of the minor (and if he's not and has a 3N bid over 2N, nothing lost). Interesting, never thought of it this way. I usually pass with ♠Hx though, while I'm not always as comfortable with ♠xx (or maybe a stiff). I'll definitely discuss this with my partner. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbforster Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 1C 1D1H 1S as any 0-7 seems kinda bad to me. Is it not? (It feels confrontational but I don't mean it as such, it just seems bad for partscore bidding but I have no experience with it, further clarification would be cool). Well you're right that my system does not prioritize part score hands, so yes, it's certainly behind systems where 1H was Kokish or extras and 1S was 0-4 instead. I am not set up to relay opposite any negative by responder, but the upside is my GF relays are almost always step lower than everyone elses' (not just on the 1C-1D ones). There are several factors that make this reasonably playable, although I expect we are behind both 2/1 and at best on par with other precision systems on a part score deal. 1. Opener has shown a minimum, 16-18ish, with 1H, so opposite 0-7 game is usually off and we don't need too many invitational sequences 2. Opener has a prepared and descriptive rebid - either 6+ single suited (or 6+/4 two suited), or a balanced hand (including 5M332/4441). These hand types, bid naturally, allow responder to pass or invite fairly easily (there are tricky ways for responder to sign off unilaterally in his own long suit at the 2 level, but these are rare). I've chosen to have opener show rather than responder for tempo reasons, although neither has really shown anything so far, shape-wise. 3. Two suited minimums by opener have been removed from this sequence (those are 1C-1D-1S with their own artificial scrambles), so there's less risk of missing a side suit fit when opener bids 1H Hope this helps. I did very extensive probability-based convention testing for the 1C-1D tree in my system, so it's pretty good for what it is, but at the end of the day it was a design decision to emphasize game/slam bidding over part scores. 1C 1D1H 1S In particular, maybe the GF hands should bid 1S and the 0-7 hands should bid 1N + ?The nice thing here is that I can continue with symmetric relays using 1N+ by the GF hands (showing H/H+m) having transferred successfully for right siding, parallel the bidding tree with the same spade hands (i.e. 1C-1H(spade GF)-1S(relay)-1N+ for S/S+m), and give useful meanings to all the higher bids that many 0-7 responding hands couldn't use without getting too high. Tempo is also important here, because responder's temporizing 1S lets opener make a natural bid and allows most of the 0-4 hands to pass, whereas otherwise a natural 2 level bid by responder would still be wide ranging and opener might feel like inviting opposite a 0-4 hand and get too high (or alternatively we'd have to give up on various invite sequences). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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