straube Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 South opens 1C. No interference. NV vs V. Please voice your opinion on interference in the "comparing systems" thread. ..........A84..........A94..........A954..........K72J973...............KT652JT87...............6322....................863QJ53...............64..........Q..........KQ5..........KQJT7..........AT98 Outcomes 6D N SCREAM6D S Meckwell Light6D S Precision by Free6D N New Big Club6D S Silent Club6D N IMPrecision6D S Relknes6D N Moscito6D S OC Precision6D S Jasmine Club6D N TOSR 6D S Zelandakh in non-club auctionPolish Club reached 6D in non-club auctiondake50 reached 6D in non-club auction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted January 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 South opens 1C. No interference. NV vs V. Please voice your opinion on interference in the "comparing systems" thread. ..........A84..........A94..........A954..........K72J973...............KT652JT87...............6322....................863QJ53...............64..........Q..........KQ5..........KQJT7..........AT98 SCREAM would bid... 1C-1D 16+, unbal with major OR bal1S-1N reverse relaying, asking2C-2D C/D, asking2N-3C 5+D/4C higher, asking3D-3H 1354, asking3S-4C 10 QPs, asking4D-4H 0 or 2 top diamonds, asking4N-5C 1 or 3 top clubs but 0 or 2 top hearts, asking5S-6D no stiff SK or SA and no CK, If you notice, I'm opening 1C here despite not having our base 10 QPs because the greater distortion would be to treat this as a 10-15 hcp hand. Sometimes pd can work it out as I think he should on this deal at the point opener denies one of the top two spade honors. I think 6D is justified because we are missing the CQ so we have one club loser, no double stop in spades, and need to ruff something for the twelth trick. Edit: SCREAM doesn't count the stiff Q as a relay point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 1♣ - 1♦ 1D = wide variety of GF hands3♣ - 3♦ 3C = opener prefers to limit hand by showing rather than asking3♥ - 3♠ 3H = 1=3=5=4 shape. 3♠ asks for slam points3N - 6♦ 3N = 9 slam points 6D = we're missing a Queen Note that MOSCITO doesn't count the stiff Q of Spades towards slam points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 IMprecision: 1♣ - 1♦ (strong club, double negative or balanced GF or 7+RP)2♦ - 2♥ (5+♦ one-suited or with 4♣, GF relay)2♠ - 2NT (4♣, relay)3♣ - 3♦ (short spades, relay)3♥ - 3♠ (1354, strength relay)3NT - 4♣ (9-10 RP, with a prime 15-count it's obvious to relay on)4♥ - 4♠ (10RP since we do count the spade queen with zero or two top diams, relay)5♣ - 6♦ (one or three top club and zero or two top hearts, north has the whole hand save jacks and signs off) We relay a bit further since ♠x ♥KQx ♦KQxxx ♣AQxx was a possibility until late in the auction. For those who don't count the spade queen, what do you do if responder has instead ♠AKx ♥Axx ♦Axxx ♣xxx? Note that slam is great opposite the actual hand (two club pitches on the spades) but would be lousy if opener lacked the ♠Q (give him a major suit jack as compensating hcp if needed). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FM75 Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 OCPrecision 1♣ - 1♠ 8+ balanced1N - 3♣ Control ask, 73♦ - 4♥ suit ask, HHx or Hxxx, sets trump (H = A,K, or Q)5♣ - 5♠ specific control ask, 2nd round only6♦ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted January 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 For those who don't count the spade queen, what do you do if responder has instead ♠AKx ♥Axx ♦Axxx ♣xxx? Note that slam is great opposite the actual hand (two club pitches on the spades) but would be lousy if opener lacked the ♠Q (give him a major suit jack as compensating hcp if needed). I just know I'm usually disappointed to learn partner has a stiff king (even counted as 1 QP) and think I would be even more disappointed to learn he had a stiff king if it had counted for 2 and I would usually be disappointed to learn pd had a stiff Q counted as 1. We don't learn about the stiff honor 'til very late (using your Parity Cue Bidding) so if we've started our slam investigation based on what we think is a good mesh and discover very high that we don't have that good mesh... Also, if we need a stiff honor, we can RKC and find that honor...including the Q and even sign off in a different strain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 I just know I'm usually disappointed to learn partner has a stiff king (even counted as 1 QP) and think I would be even more disappointed to learn he had a stiff king if it had counted for 2 and I would usually be disappointed to learn pd had a stiff Q counted as 1. We don't learn about the stiff honor 'til very late (using your Parity Cue Bidding) so if we've started our slam investigation based on what we think is a good mesh and discover very high that we don't have that good mesh... Also, if we need a stiff honor, we can RKC and find that honor...including the Q and even sign off in a different strain. Yes, you have explained this theory before. I was more interested in slight modifications of the actual hand. From the dodge of the question, I get the feeling you might not have the best result? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 For those who don't count the spade queen, what do you do if responder has instead ♠AKx ♥Axx ♦Axxx ♣xxx? Note that slam is great opposite the actual hand (two club pitches on the spades) but would be lousy if opener lacked the ♠Q (give him a major suit jack as compensating hcp if needed). We don't do as well as you do, however, we also don't have to include all four suits in the scanning order and there's many fewer hand types that we need to consider. As an example, on this hand I didn't need to scan to place honors. I think that, on average, the gains out weigh the losses.Your milage may vary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted January 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Yes, you have explained this theory before. I was more interested in slight modifications of the actual hand. From the dodge of the question, I get the feeling you might not have the best result? :) I thought I was obviously conceding that I lose on the deal you created. I mean, I have a point though right? There are tradeoffs here and we both win sometimes :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Yes, you have explained this theory before. I was more interested in slight modifications of the actual hand. From the dodge of the question, I get the feeling you might not have the best result? :) Posting a single hand and speculating doesn't prove anything... If people are seriously interested in studying how efficacious different auction termination structures are, the best option would seem to be implementing bidding bots for various approaches and setting these loose on a large corpus of hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 1C 2H (14+bal)3D 3S (3D=MSS, 3S=4 diamonds not 4 clubs)4H 4N (RKC, 0-3)5H 6C (king ask, CK, no other kings)6D Very unimpressive auction since I would miss a laydown 7 opp Kx of clubs. Finding out about third round club control at some point seems like the key to this hand. Lol at how much better relay systems are gonna be than my auctions for slam, will be embarassing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 1♣ - 1♦ 1D = wide variety of GF hands3♣ - 3♦ 3C = opener prefers to limit hand by showing rather than asking3♥ - 3♠ 3H = 1=3=5=4 shape. 3♠ asks for slam points3N - 6♦ 3N = 9 slam points 6D = we're missing a Queen Note that MOSCITO doesn't count the stiff Q of Spades towards slam pointsI'd rather ask, exactly because we have the stiff ♠Q which partner will never know about if we show. On this hand it doesn't matter though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Our MW Precision basically uses the MW opening structure and some of its features. It has complex structures after all openings (1M Garrozzo-style, Italian 2NT structure, MW 1♦ and 1NT structure), but the 1♣ opening is kept very Vanilla because we don't play often enough to build a complex structure As with deal 1, it's more about a good 1NT structure for us. ;) 1♣-1NT (16+ ; balanced 8-10 or 13-15)2NT-3♣ (Puppet Stayman ; no 5 card M)3♦-3♥ (any (31)=(54) ; asking)3♠-4♦ (1=3=(54) ; sets trumps)4♥-4♠ (even number of keycards ; cue)4NT-5♣ (♥ cue ; cue)5NT-6♣ (♦Q but no first round control M ; asking for ♣Q)6♦-pass (no ♣Q ; ok) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilver Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Hilversumse klaveren 1♣ - 1♦1NT - 2♦3♣ - 3♦3♥ - 4♠4NT - 5♦5♥ - 6♣6♦ Explanation:1♦ = relay1NT = 5+ card diamonds2♦ = relay, at least 7 HCP3♣ = 4/5 card clubs3♦ = relay asking for stoppers in ♥ and ♠3♥ = a stop in hearts, not in spades4♠ = we investigate a diamond slam4NT = Roman Key Card Blackwood for diamonds5♦ = 0 or 3 keycards5♥ = asking for ♦Q or extra length in diamonds (North promised 3+ diamonds by bidding 4♠)6♣ = ♦Q or 4+ card diamonds and ♣K6♦ = sign off Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sieong Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 I would have bid the hand exactly the same way Adam did. There are no branches to be taken in the auction. There was a time when I used to rebid 1NT with this type of hands (5431 with no 5 card majors and stiff honor). The results tended to be poor though, so now I usually just make the system bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relknes Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 South opens 1C. No interference. NV vs V. Please voice your opinion on interference in the "comparing systems" thread. ..........A84..........A94..........A954..........K72J973...............KT652JT87...............6322....................863QJ53...............64..........Q..........KQ5..........KQJT7..........AT98Using a fairly basic strong club with reverse-cuebids, I would bid: 1♣-1N2♦-3♦3♥-3♠4♣-5♣6♣-6♦Pass Translation:S: 16+, N: 9+ balanced, GFS: unbaanced, 5+ diamonds, N: diamond support, 4+ controlsS: Do you have 1st or second round control of hearts?, N: yes, do you have first or second round control of spades?S: Yes, and two of the top 3 trump, do you have first or second round control of clubs?, N: Yes, and first round control of both majors and one of the top 3 trump, do you have first round control of clubs?S: Yes, as well as second round control of both majors and the J of trump, do you have third round control of clubs?, N: no.S: then 6♦ it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 ..........A84..........A94..........A954..........K72 ..........Q..........KQ5..........KQJT7..........AT982D-4C- 5+diamonds, 13-17 - D-keys4NT-6D. 2+Q - try Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonylee Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Not going to open a Polish club with a 17-count and primary diamonds... North is going to show a GF raise of diamonds, south will keycard and that's about it. Hardly a precise auction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbforster Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 South opens 1C. No interference. NV vs V. Please voice your opinion on interference in the "comparing systems" thread. ..........A84..........A94..........A954..........K72J973...............KT652JT87...............6322....................863QJ53...............64..........Q..........KQ5..........KQJT7..........AT98Silent Club: 1♣-1♠ strong; balanced GF or clubs1N-2♥ relay; balanced no major2♠-2N relay; 4m3333♣-4♥ relay; 3343 11 QPs (so off an A, or QC and a black king)4♠-5♠ relay; 1-2 AKQ honors in each suit, only 1 in diamonds (so off AS, or QC and KS)6♦-P Sure 6N is cold if partner has all the secondary honors and we're just off the spade A, but I can't tell between that and the actual hand below 6♦ so I took the known slam. Partner might not ask for which minor after hearing 4m333 and just signoff in 3N with his min, in which case it'd proceed: 3N-4♥ signoff; 11 QPs (minor unknown this time)4♠-5♠ relay; 1-2 AKQ honors in each suit, only 1 in spades (same two unknown hand types as above)6♦-P This time 6D is only on a known 5-3 fit, and if so and partner has the hand given but with 3334 (rather than missing the AS), now we'll need 3-2 trump and bring in the 4-4 club suit for only 1 loser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 1♦ = max 17, 4+ diamonds, unbal... - 1♥ = INV+ relay2♣ = max, 4+ clubs, GF... - 2♦ = relay2♥ = 5+ diamonds, 4 clubs... - 2♠ = relay2NT = 5 diamonds... - 3♣ = relay3♦ = 1354... - 3♥ = relay3NT = 4 controls... - 4NT = Q ask5♣ = no ♣Q... - 6♦ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siegmund Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Unassuming Club: 1D-2D3S splinterenthusiastic cuebidding, which I hope ends in 6D, but a real risk of getting to 7, with all the aces and kings and solid trumps. Malfoir: 1C-2NT(13-15 or 18+)-3D-cuebids-6D. Again I am not sure I can diagnose the 3-3 hearts and lack of queens in time to avoid 7D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 #02. South opens 1C. No interference. NV vs V Jasmine ♣North ♠ A84 ♥ A94 ♦ A954 ♣ K72: __ 2♣ 3♦ 4♣ 5♣ 6♦South ♠ Q ♥ KQ5 ♦ KQJT7 ♣ AT98: 1♣ 2♦ 3♥ 4♦ 6♣1♣ = Art, 16+2♣ = Art, 8+, No 4+ M.2♦ = Nat.3♥ = Stop.4♣ = 0/3 keys.4♦ = Waiting5♣ = ♣K.6♣ = Ask for 3rd round control6♦ = NoMarks, IMO 6♦ = 10. 5♦/5N/6N = 7. 5♣ = 4. 6♣ = 3. Partscores = 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 We might get to 7... 1♣-2NT (12+ BAL, 4+controls)3♦-4♦ (we're forced to 4NT anyway, so...) No idea how it goes from there, but North may not let South slow down. These are the kind of 17s I want to take out of 1♣ and treat as reverser reds, for exactly this reason. But that's way too pessimistic. We might get to 6NT, too, but at least it's from the right side. Go ahead, find the ♠K lead off the top... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbodell Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 6♦N (tosr based system) 1♣-1♠ : forcing, art, 16+; game force, 8+ hcp, 2+ controls, balanced [4333, 4432] or both reds1nt-2♦ : relay; two suits of same color OR minor 43332♥-2♠ : relay; minor 43332nt-3♦ : relay; 3=3=4=33♥-4♠ : relay; 7 controls (A=2; K=1)4nt-5nt : relay; one of the top 2 cards in each suit, no diamond Q6♦ : to play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qplus10 Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 qplus10 here again. 1♣ 1nt It thought 1nt(9-11 balanced) and 2nt (13-16 balanced) were equal choices in imps. I chose 1nt as the match point value was higher. 2♦ 2♥ 2♥ was 4+ natural and won the sim by 0.3 imps from 2♠. 3♣ 4♦ 4♦ beat 3♦ by 0.1 imps in the sim. 4nt(RKCB) 5♣ 6♦ maybe this is all a bit pointless but anyway it is getting to an ok contract each time so far even if the bids seem mad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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