Deal #1

[straube]

They do not bid 1C p 2D with 5 hearts imo, so there is that. If hearts were shown to begin with it would be another question of judgement to get to spades rather than hearts.

 

Yeah, I think their auction starts 1C-1S, 2C where spades shows hearts and clubs shows hearts. I think in general that in Precision-based systems, opener usually shows his suit before supporting or inquiring after responder's suit. I'm sure there are exceptions...like when opener is prepared to take control of the auction and doesn't need to know about support for his own suit. In this hand, opener has a nice minimum and would be glad to have his partner upgrade the SK if he had happened to have had it.

[straube]

Yeah, I admit they don't usually skip 5 Hearts, but this suit is REALLY ragged, and they do like to limit their hands when possible. I can't really do a confident auction if it goes 1♣-1♠, so that was one reason I went with balanced 8-10.

 

The other reason is that they still can find a 5-3 Heart fit after the 2♦ bid. In that case, the auction goes 1♣-2♦ ; 2NT (Stayman-ish) - 3♠ (5 Hearts). The other possible responses after 2NT are 3♣ (4 Hearts, could have 4 Spades), 3♦ (4 Spades, denies 4 Hearts), and 3♥ (5 Spades).

 

I have very old and partial notes of theirs. They used to show 4m4m and unspecified 4m333. It sounds like you are much more familiar with what they are doing now.

[JLOGIC]

I thought same as you straube, I thought they had no way to show a 5 card major after 2D since they didn't bid it with a 5 card major and showed 4-4 and 33(43).

[akhare]

Since Josh is MIA, here's the TOSR auction from memory (RobF can correct if I am wrong):

 

..........K4

..........98763

..........7542

..........AK

 

..........AQJ982

..........QJ5

..........AK

..........T6

 

1♣ - 1♠ (16+, Bal/reds)

1N - 3♣ (2=5=4=2)

3♦ - 3♥ (2-5 AK controls)

4♦ - 4♥ (terminator; decision to play 4♥ to conceal hand, but 4♠ possible too)

[Zelandakh]

My auction is also short and somewhat similar to PhilKing's:

 

1♠ = max 17, 5+ spades, unbal

... - 1N = INV+ relay

2♠ = max, 6+ spades, no side suit

... - 4♠

 

My auction highlights something which I think is relevant if you want to have meaningful data. Are you looking for the best practical auctions, or for the best end contract (in a vacuum)? I ask this because if I knew I was in a bidding contest (and therefore that the play was irrelevant) then I would happily relay over 2♠ in case Opener has a perfecto. But my feeling is that doing that in practise would be a mistake because it makes the defence very easy. Therefore, simply recording the final contract does not seem to me to accurately portray the essential characteristics of the various systems, which I thought was one of your aims.

[straube]

My auction is also short and somewhat similar to PhilKing's:

 

1♠ = max 17, 5+ spades, unbal

... - 1N = INV+ relay

2♠ = max, 6+ spades, no side suit

... - 4♠

 

My auction highlights something which I think is relevant if you want to have meaningful data. Are you looking for the best practical auctions, or for the best end contract (in a vacuum)? I ask this because if I knew I was in a bidding contest (and therefore that the play was irrelevant) then I would happily relay over 2♠ in case Opener has a perfecto. But my feeling is that doing that in practise would be a mistake because it makes the defence very easy. Therefore, simply recording the final contract does not seem to me to accurately portray the essential characteristics of the various systems, which I thought was one of your aims.

 

Good question. I would say bid it as you would at the table...so not looking for the perfecto if you are concerned about information leakage. Still, a lot of us play relay systems because we're looking for that magic slam, so there may be a bit of bias here in that direction. We may or may not wind up scoring this somehow. If we did, we'd ask whoever scores it to look at whether too much information was given, whether the contract was wrong-sided, etc. It would probably be very subjective and wouldn't mean a lot. Not to me anyway. I think this is an opportunity for us to compare systems and make independent judgments. Do we like how our system is doing or do we see something better? That's why it's important to try to bid as objectively as possible, because not doing so hurts ourselves.

[nige1]

#01. South opens 1C. No interference. All white

Jasmine ♣

North ♠ K4 ♥ 98763 ♦ 7542 ♣ AK: __ 1♠ 2N 3N

South ♠ AQJ982 ♥ QJ5 ♦ AK ♣ T6: 1♣ 2♠ 3♥ 4♥

• 1♣ = Art, 16+
• 1♠ = Art, 8+, 4+♥
• 2♠ = Nat..
• 2N = Art, 5+ ♥, denies 3♠.
• 3♥ = Nat, Key-ask.
• 3N = 1/4 keys.
• 4♥ = Nat

Marks, IMO: 4N = 10. 4♠ = 7. 4♥ = 5. 5♠ = 4. Partscores = 2. 5♥ = 1.

[the_clown]

1♣-1♥ (8-11 no 5♠)

1♠ - ? Now depending if you bid 1N or 2♥ you will play 4♠ or 4♥

[Mbodell]

4♠N for us (tosr based system).

 

1♣-1♠ : forcing, art, 16+; game force, 8+ hcp, 2+ controls, balanced [4333, 4432] or both red suits

1nt-2♣ : relay; both red suits

2♦-3♣ : relay; 2=5=4=2 (or occasionally 1=7=4=1)

3♦-3nt : relay; 4 controls

4♦-4♥ : puppet to 4♥ for sign off; forced

4♠ : to play

[qplus10]

I thought I would see what the second best strong club bidding program came up with so here is the auction for qplus10.

 

 

 

First I ran a simulation for it to chose between 1♥ and 1nt. It decided 1♥ 5 cards 8+ was 1.4 imps worse than 1nt 8-11 balanced gf.

So 1♣ - 1nt

2♠ - 2nt It prefered 2nt to 3♥ by 0.6 imps. It really doesn't like this heart suit.

3nt 3nt and 4♠ had the same score at imps but 3nt gained in mps so I chose that.

 

All bids after 1nt are natural.

[Mbodell]

I thought I would see what the second best strong club bidding program came up with so here is the auction for qplus10.

 

Yeah! I like seeing computers bidding, and hope the computer world championship will become less restrictive than the ACBL (instead of more restrictive) and allow more creative systems play. But what is the best strong club bidding program if qplus10 is second?

[Cthulhu D]

Yeah! I like seeing computers bidding, and hope the computer world championship will become less restrictive than the ACBL (instead of more restrictive) and allow more creative systems play. But what is the best strong club bidding program if qplus10 is second?

 

GIB and Jack both play MOSCITO.

[qplus10]

Jack is the best in my opinion I may go through the hands with him after qplus. Jack has 3 options moscito, precision with all natural follow ups or 1♣1♦1♥is hearts or balanced.

 

Playing normal systems Jack was about 2 imps a board better than gib last time I checked.

 

It might be interesting to run some of the better programs against some strong players if they ever fancy it to see how far computers are behind these days. matches against wbridge5 the second best overall program for the last few years are easy to run and the program is free so I am not so worried about advertising something bbo doesn't sell. wbridge5 doesn't play any strong clubs though.

[jack502]

Here are the results for jack 5.02 moscito which shd be more sane than qplus10 we'll see.

 

1♣ 1♦

2♥ 2♠

2nt 3♣

3♦ 3♥

3nt 4♦

4♥ 4♠

 

At least it makes more sense so far. 1♣ is 15+ 1♦ is gf. 2♥ spade single suiter. bids to 3nt are relays and shape showing 6322. 4♦terminator.

[mr1303]

A version of Icelandic Relays

 

1C 1S (Hearts)

1NT 2H (2 spades)

2S 3C (2542)

3D 3NT (4 controls)

4S

[benlessard]

In chapi/Comedy Club .

 

1C--1D (strong, H or pts)

2S--2Nt (16-17pts with 6S, GF relay)

3C--3D (bal, S rkc)

4C--4S (2+Q no Kh, Soff)

 

Its more luck than brain that we are in S rather than H.

[relknes]

Phantom

 

1♣ - 2♥

2♠ - 2N

4♥

 

Translation:

S: takeout double of 1♣, N: 9-11, 5+

S: 17+, natural, GF N: balancedish

S: 3+ heart support, no slam interest

[Lord Molyb]

Molybdenum Forcing Pass System:

 

S ---- N

P --- 1♣ (opening hand, 0-bad 12)

1♠ --- 1NT (19-21 (barely in this case), GF opposite 19-21)

2♠ --- 3♥ (both natural)

3♠ --- 4♣ (natural, cue bid)

4♦ --- 4♠ (cue, signoff)

P

 

Note: 4♥ over 3♠ would have been a cue, and to show self-sufficient hearts North would jump to 4♥ over 2♠.

 

Phantom

 

1♣ - 2♥

2♠ - 2N

4♥

 

Translation:

S: takeout double of 1♣, N: 9-11, 5+

S: 17+, natural, GF N: balancedish

S: 3+ heart support, no slam interest

That is a snazzy looking system. How do you show weak and strong NT hands?

[Lord Molyb]

moving into other post

[Zelandakh]

That is a snazzy looking system. How do you show weak and strong NT hands?

The idea of that system is to treat the hand as if RHO has opened 1♣. So with a strong NT he would simply open 1NT as normal. With a weak NT, he would either pass or open 1♣ depending on whether the hand qualified as a takeout double of clubs or not.

[Lord Molyb]

Oh, I get it. So with a strong hand with long clubs he passes? Or does he have a way around that?

[Zelandakh]

I would guess he plays 2♣ as a natural "overcall" rather than Michaels but I am not 100% sure since this has not come up yet. And with a stronger hand, presumably 1♣ followed by a club rebid shows a club-based hand too strong for that (Double and bid), although that might also cause a problem on the really big hands since there is no cue bid. Not sure exactly how he solves this yet.

[gwnn]

The point of phantom club is not to solve problems but rather to create some. And create some you will.

[CamHenry]

OK, here's an auction using our homebrew system. It's currently lacking a name as it's moved away from its old one.

 

1♦ - 1♠ --- 16+, excluding GF hands / 8+, excluding some immediate slam tries

2♥ - 2♠ --- ♠ single-suited OR short ♠ OR both minors / relay

2NT - 4♣ --- Single-suited option/setting suit, mild slam try (4 or 6 control points)

4♦ - 4♠ --- Mild acceptance (5-6 CPs) / signoff

[Kungsgeten]

South opens 1C. No interference. All white

 

..........K4

..........98763

..........7542

..........AK

T63...................75

A2....................KT4

J86...................QT93

QJ973.................8542

..........AQJ982

..........QJ5

..........AK

..........T6

 

Pass 2000

 

P* - 1D; (0-7 / 17+ -- 4+H, may have longer minor, not 4443 or 4432, 8-16 hcp)

1H - 1NT; (relay, weak or strong -- not 5+ minor (unless 5440) nor 4+ spades)

2C - 3C; (GF relay -- 5+H, 4D, equal shortness)

3D - 3H; (relay -- 2-5-4-2)

3S - 4C; (ace ask -- 1 or 4 aces)

4H - P;

 

We would like to play in 4S here, but that would've been a super relay (asking for the location of the ace). I've been thinking about suggesting DCB instead, perhaps in the future.