straube Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 South opens 1C. No interference. All white ..........K4 ..........98763 ..........7542 ..........AKT63...................75A2....................KT4J86...................QT93QJ973.................8542..........AQJ982..........QJ5..........AK..........T6 Outcomes 4S S SCREAM4S S Meckwell Light4S S PhilKing4S S Precision by Atul4S S Precision by Free4H N New Big Club4S N Polish Club4S S Silent Club 4S S IMPrecision4S S Relknes4H S Moscito4S S OC Precision4H N dake504H N TOSR4H S Jasmine Club4S N TOSR (mbodell) 4S S Zelandakh (non-club auction)Cyberyeti also posted a COG of 3N, 4H, or 4S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted January 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 South opens 1C. No interference. ..........K4 ..........98763 ..........7542 ..........AKT63...................75A2....................KT4J86...................QT93QJ973.................8542..........AQJ982..........QJ5..........AK..........T6 SCREAM handles this... 1C-1D 15+, 5+ QPS, unbal with major OR bal1H-1N bal or S, H or H/D2C-3C ask, 25423D-3N ask, 7 QPs4D-4H puppets, forced4S.....sign off Pretty ordinary, but not a bad hand to start if others are interested posting their own auctions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Not relaying makes this harder since there are judgement calls. For instance I would start 1C 1H*1S 1H=8-11 any. Now north might decide to bid 1N instead of introducing such a bad heart suit. But this potentially wrongsides NT so lets go with 1C 1H1S 2H Now, south could rebid spades or raise hearts. This is a similar problem that occurs with 1S p 2H p ? when you are 6-3 with good spades and good hearts. I would argue that since south knows its not a slam hand they should probably bid 2S and then 4H if partner doesn't raise spades, but maybe I am just resulting since I know the full hand? So probably 1C 1H1S 2H2S 3S Now maybe 4H should show 6-3 and give a choice. It doesn't make that much sense as a serious cuebid, but maybe if I held AKQJxxx AK Qxx Qx I would think differently lol. Probably I would just bid 4S since I would think 4H could be a serious cuebid. So 1C 1H1S 2H2S 3S4S but it is easier when I know all the hands. Maybe IRL I would raise hearts, maybe it's even right to do so. It is possible hearts is better opposite 2-5 with 2 small spades, but it is unlikely and seems much more likely spades is better. I will say it is easy to bid every hand right when you know your partners hand, that is kinda the problem with this format if your system requires judgement calls. I could easily see something like 1C 1H1S 2H3H getting to 4H (or 1C 1H 1S 2H 4H). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted January 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Not resulting will be a challenge. Folks are free to bid hands with their partners and then post and this may remove some subjectivity, but I'm looking for an idealized auction. By idealized, I don't mean optimum outcome, but the system used to best effect..both pards on the same wavelength, etc. Btw, very glad to have you post. In fact it would be nice to have you as some sort of judge as well as participant, but let's see how things develop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Embarrassing simple: 1♠-1NT3♠-4♠ 3♠ guarantees very sound values (minimum "standard" 3♠ bid a 3-way 2♣ and can stop in Two in Gazilliesque fashion). Responder is worth a 4♣ cue, perhaps, but I actually play it as a long suit try, promising a good suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhare Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Let me throw one in for Precision. 1C* - 1H Playing Gamma, opener may decide to bid 2H: 1C - 1H 2H* - 2S* (5+ trumps, no honor)4H Without Gamma, the auction might go: 1C* - 1H1S - 2D2H - 4H Alternatively, if opener decides to rebid spades: 1C* - 1H1S - 2D2S - 4S In both cases, responder will be keen on quickly signing off given the lack of values in the red suits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Our MW Precision basically uses the MW opening structure and some of its features. It has complex structures after all openings (1M Garrozzo-style, Italian 2NT structure, MW 1♦ and 1NT structure), but the 1♣ opening is kept very Vanilla because we don't play often enough to build a complex structure This could go various ways. Responder may start with 1♥ (GF with 5+♥) or 1NT (balanced, 8-10 or 13-15). Personally I think North will show a balanced hand, because we can still find out about the 5 card M, and in that case it's never a good suit. After 1♣-1NT we play our normal 1NT structure (possibly wrongsiding contracts, we know), where invites show very light slam invites (to stay low in case responder has the 13-15 range). We'll obviously end up in 4♠ after South shows a very light slam invite hand with 6+♠. 1♣-1NT (16+ any ; balanced 8-10 or 13-15)2♥-2♠ (transfer 5+♠ ; accept)3♥-3NT (6+♠ INV or slam interest $♣/♥ ; max hand in the range 8-10 or better)4♠-pass (very light balanced slam invite ; I don't have 13-15) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhare Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 This is an aside, but it was interesting to see that Revision Club has adopted the idea of 1♦ as a potential GF. http://www.bridgewithdan.com/systems/revision_club_4th_ed.zip In this case, the auction will go: 1C* - 1D* (16+; various, including GF hands)1S - 2H (natural, natural GF)3H - 4H Richard and Adam haven't posted yet, but I bet that the plurality of auctions on this thread will begin with 1C* - 1D* B-)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilver Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 South opens 1C. No interference. ..........K4 ..........98763 ..........7542 ..........AKT63...................75A2....................KT4J86...................QT93QJ973.................8542..........AQJ982..........QJ5..........AK..........T6 New Big Club (Hilversumse Klaveren http://home.tiscali.nl/hilver/hk.htm )1♣ - 1♦ (relay)1♠ - 2♥ (5+-card, GF)3♥ - 4♥all pass Alternatively:1♣ - 1♦ (relay)1♠ - 2♥ (5+-card, GF)2♠ - 3♠4 ♠ - all pass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Very old style precision with simple asking bids 1♣-1♥1♠(alpha)-2♣(4+ controls, <♠Qxx)2♥(gamma)-2♠(no top heart honour)Take your pick of games, you know partner has 5+ hearts to no more than the 10, the K♠ with maybe one other and the AK♣, 3N/4♥/4♠ all plausible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonylee Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Polish club:1♣-1♥ (WNT or 15+ ♣s unbal or 18+; 7+)1♠-1N (12-17 with 4♠ or (18-21 5+♠, not 3♥ if bal, not 4♥); signoff opposite WNT)2♠-2N (strong variant (2♥ would unfortunately be a signoff here); natural)3♥-3♠ (natural & implies 6♠ as a strong 53(32) would have started with 2♦ over 1♥ and no 4cm has been shown; natural)4♠ (I decided to open 1♣ instead of 1♠ even though this is a pretty minimal 1♣ mostly for the sake of the thread :)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbforster Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 South opens 1C. No interference. ..........K4 ..........98763 ..........7542 ..........AKT63...................75A2....................KT4J86...................QT93QJ973.................8542..........AQJ982..........QJ5..........AK..........T6In my Silent Club, this one relays out shape and leaves opener on a guess as to which 4M game to try, once values are insufficient for slam. 1♣-1♦ strong; non-GF or various unbalanced GF's with ♥s mostly1♥-2N waiting (includes minimum single suiters or min balanced); ♥>♦ unbal GF, no shortness3♣-3♦ relay; 25423♥-3N strength ask; 7 QPs4♦-4♥ terminator; forced4♠-P signoff As South/captain, it seemed safe to ask for values despite my minimum since we were aiming for 4M and not 3N and there was plenty of space. After identifing our total of only 17 QPs, and with no exceptional shape, it seems clear to sign off. While my system doesn't give any indication of suit strength, South is looking at a 6-2 fit with some very nice spades in his hand so I went with that (either way South is going to play 4M and has revealed nothing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sieong Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 It would be interesting to see if Adam and I agree on how IMprecision bids these hands. For me, it will go 1♣ - 1♦ (strong; DN or bal GF or 7+ AKQ pts)1♠ - 1N (4+♠, forcing; artificial GF)3♣ ... (6322 or 7222) Up to this point, there are no choices to be made. At this point, responder is the captain. Relevant options to me are: 3♦ ask for shape (follow up by RP), 3♥ ask for RP directly. Should responder try to find out if a 5-3 heart fit? I suppose if opener has AJxxxx AKQ Ax xx, 6♥ is just good enough and better than 6♠, but only barely so. Given that 6-2 generally plays better than 5-3, I will opt for asking for RP directly to gain a step, so the bidding will continue ... 3♥ (ask for RP)3♠ - 4♦ (9-10 RP; too few RP to slam try, time to sign-off)4♥ - 4♠ (forced; sign-off) Technically it is superior to have 4♠ as sign-off there, but we have not optimized the system in that respect (yet, and perhaps never will). I would like to be in 3NT, but I don't see how to get there confidently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relknes Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 South opens 1C. No interference. ..........K4 ..........98763 ..........7542 ..........AKT63...................75A2....................KT4J86...................QT93QJ973.................8542..........AQJ982..........QJ5..........AK..........T6Playing a fairly straightforward strong club with reverse-cuebids: 1♣-1♥1♠-1N (or possibly 2♦, which would not change the subsequent auction)2♠-3♠4♣-4♦4♥-4♠ Translation:S: 16+, N: 9+ points, 5+ hearts, GFS: 5+ spades, N: balanced (or 4+ diamonds if chosing the 2♦ bid)S: 6+ spades, N: 4+ controls, 2 spadesS: 2 of top 3 spades, no 1st or 2nd round control of clubs, N: Clubs controled, but not diamondsS: Diamonds controled, but not hearts, N: No heart control, signoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 It would be interesting to see if Adam and I agree on how IMprecision bids these hands. For me, it will go Well I'd ask for complete shape, not so much because I might want to play in hearts as because the seventh spade seems important to counting twelve tricks on some auctions. For example, AQJxxxx AK Ax xx is a cold slam with a bit of play for grand, whereas AQJxxx AKx Ax xx has no play for six on a diamond lead and might fail if hearts are 4-1 even on a club lead. Thus: 1♣ - 1♦ (strong club, double negative or bal GF or 7+RP)1♠ - 1NT (spades, GF relay)3♣ - 3♦ (6322 or 7222, asking)3♥ - 3♠ (6322; asking strength)3NT - 4♦ (9-10 RP; this is not enough so asking signoff)4♥ - 4♠Pass I'm also not really sure I'd want to play in 3NT. It seems like 3NT will make ten tricks basically always, since they will attack one of the minors and that will not leave us the time to establish a heart trick. In 4♠ we will sometimes make only ten tricks, but they almost have to lead hearts on the go and get a ruff, which will be difficult in a lot of positions. Basically I suspect I have a 50% shot of making 11 tricks in spades against real defense, whereas I don't think I am ever making 11 tricks in notrump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Here's the MOSCITO auction 1♣ - 1♦ 1D = Various Game Forcing Hands1♥ - 1♠ 1H = Opener prefers to ask rather than show1N - 2♣2♦ - 3♦ 3D = 2=5=4=2 shape3♠ - 4♣ 3♠ = 3014 RKCB for RR's longest suit 4♣ = 1/4 key cards4♥ - Pass Here's a brief description of what's what: The 1♦ response establishes an immediate game force 1♥ means that opener prefers to ask rather than show. This typically means that opener has extra strength or is balanced (where its better to ask rather than show). At this point in time, we're in a traditional symmetric relay structure at +1. Shape is completely resolved at +1. Once shape is revealed, opener has a number of options for exploring slam. 3♥ bid would ask for slam points. In this case, I think that the heart holding is the key piece of information, so I prefer to bid 3♠ which is RKCB in RR's longest suit. Once RR is know to have one keycard, it seems clear to stop at 4♥ One "cost" of the keycard route is that you are unable to play in 4S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhare Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Once shape is revealed, opener has a number of options for exploring slam. 3♥ bid would ask for slam points. In this case, I think that the heart holding is the key piece of information, so I prefer to bid 3♠ which is RKCB in RR's longest suit. Once RR is know to have one keycard, it seems clear to stop at 4♥ One "cost" of the keycard route is that you are unable to play in 4S. Richard, This is an aside, but is there a distinct advantage to basing the RKC ask on suit length (longest to shortest, with ties broken in decreasing suit order)? The reason for asking is that our RKC asks are based on increasing suit order (♣ to ♠) and there's something to be said about responder's longest suit likely being trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted January 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Richard, This is an aside, but is there a distinct advantage to basing the RKC ask on suit length (longest to shortest, with ties broken in decreasing suit order)? The reason for asking is that our RKC asks are based on increasing suit order (♣ to ♠) and there's something to be said about responder's longest suit likely being trump. We do this because it's very difficult to find key cards for clubs and diamonds without passing 5m. In fact, I think we've almost always chosen to use RKC when searching for minor suit slams. We have extra space and two routes of locating cards for spades and hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FM75 Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 OCPrecision 1♣ - 1♥ 8+, 5+♥1N - 2♥ control ask, 42♠ - 3♦ asking spades. Hx or xxx, does not set trump3♥ - 3♠ trump ask, no top honors! (that is a surprise - thinking ... ) - p has ♠K and ♣AK since ops have the other controls ♥AK4♠ (This auction does disclose to W that dummy will not have ♥ K or Q ...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petterb Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 OCPrecision 1♣ - 1♥ 8+, 5+♥1N - 2♥ control ask, 42♠ - 3♦ asking spades. Hx or xxx, does not set trump3♥ - 3♠ trump ask, no top honors! (that is a surprise - thinking ... ) - p has ♠K and ♣AK since ops have the other controls ♥AK4♠Why not 3NT instead of 4 ♠? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 ..........K4 ..........98763 ..........7542 ..........AK ..........AQJ982..........QJ5..........AK..........T61C-2D- 18+bal or clubs; or 5losers+5controls+5+spades - 8+, 5+hearts2H-2S- 3+hearts or accepting for info - no HA,K,Q4H Done talking. Get a survey of how this is going. That the discussion is pointedly intending their best judgment.Then batch 5 or 10. I seldom can predict which days I can get back to see other mind's suggestions. But I don't want to miss the live time on any hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasetb Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 This is a little late, but I'm sure that R-M Precision (the actual name of Meckwell's Precision system) would get to 4♠ as well. Ironically, it's the shortest auction of the bunch.1♣-2♦ (8-10 balanced)4♠ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted January 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 This is a little late, but I'm sure that R-M Precision (the actual name of Meckwell's Precision system) would get to 4♠ as well. Ironically, it's the shortest auction of the bunch.1♣-2♦ (8-10 balanced)4♠ I'm familiar with their strong club but not enough to post for them. Are you? It would be a nice addition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 They do not bid 1C p 2D with 5 hearts imo, so there is that. If hearts were shown to begin with it would be another question of judgement to get to spades rather than hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasetb Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Yeah, I admit they don't usually skip 5 Hearts, but this suit is REALLY ragged, and they do like to limit their hands when possible. I can't really do a confident auction if it goes 1♣-1♠, so that was one reason I went with balanced 8-10. The other reason is that they still can find a 5-3 Heart fit after the 2♦ bid. In that case, the auction goes 1♣-2♦ ; 2NT (Stayman-ish) - 3♠ (5 Hearts). The other possible responses after 2NT are 3♣ (4 Hearts, could have 4 Spades), 3♦ (4 Spades, denies 4 Hearts), and 3♥ (5 Spades) for those who are remotely interested. EDIT - Forgot to list that 3NT denies a Major obv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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