Imprecision idea

[straube]

1C-1D (DN, GF bal, or 6+ QP unbal)

 

.....1H-

..........1S-DN, GF bal, 6+ QP minor family

...............1N-17-21

....................2C-GF bal (leaves enough space here, but concerned about disclosing unnecessary information)

.........................2D-no major

..............................2S-4C/4D

..............................2N-5C322s

..............................3C-4m333

..............................etc-5Ds332

.........................2H-4H

..............................2N-4S

..............................3C-2434

..............................3D-3424

..............................3H-2443

..............................3S-3442

.........................2S-4S

.........................2N-5H332s

.........................3C-4M333

.........................etc-5S332s

....................2D-6+ QP minor family (or heart transfer)

....................2H-6+ QP w/ 6+ clubs (don't show with 5C332) (or spade transfer)

....................2S-6+ QP C/D/M

....................2N-6+ QP 6+ diamonds balanced (or club transfer)

....................etc-

...............2C-22+ bal

....................2D-DN, GF bal

.........................2H-24+ or GF 3-suited

..............................2S-DN

...................................2N-24+ bal

...................................etc-3-suited

.........................2S-GI majors

..............................2N-asking

...................................3C-4S/5+H

...................................3D-5S/5H

...................................3H-5S/4H

...................................3S-6S/4H

.........................2N-22-23

.........................3C-GF-4S/5+H

.........................3D-GF-5S/5H

.........................3H-GF-5S/4H

.........................3S-GF-6S/4H

....................etc-minor family at +2

...............2D-4H/5+D or 3-suited short spade

....................2S-GF relay

.........................2N-3-suited short spade

.........................3C-4H/5+D, higher

.........................3D-2452

.........................etc

...............2H-4+S/5+H (treat 4540s as 4531s)

....................2N-GF relay

...............2S-5S/5H

....................2N-GF relay

...............2N-GF clubs

...............3C-GF 4D/5C

...............3D-GF 5D/4C

 

 

.....1S-4+ spades

..........1N-GF relay

...............2C-clubs

...............2D-3-suited

...............2H-single-suited

...............etc-diamonds

..........2C-DN, 3+ clubs

...............2D-natural, nf

...............2H-artificial GF

...............2S-6 spades

...............other-invitational

..........2D-DN, 5+ diamonds

...............2H-artificial GF

...............2S-usually 6 spades

...............2N-to play

...............3C-to play

..........2H-DN, 6 hearts

...............2S-6 spades

...............2N-GF

...............3m-GF, 5+

...............3H-GI

..........2S-DN, 3 spades

.....1N-5+H, denies 4 spades

..........2C-relays

...............2D-4+C

...............2H-single-suited

...............etc-diamonds

..........2D-DN, 2-3 hearts

...............2S-artificial GF

..........2H-DN, 0-1 hearts

...............2S-artificial GF

...............2N-a 4-cd minor, nf

....................3C-p/c

...............3m-a 5-cd minor, nf

..........2S-DN, 6+ spades

..........2N-4+ hearts, good hand for DN

..........3m-0-1 heart, to play

..........3H-4+ hearts, bad hand for DN

.....2C-5+C/4D, 6+C, 5+C/4H

..........2D-GF relay

...............2H-6+C

...............2S-5+C/4D

...............etc-5+C/4H

.....2D-6+D, 5+D/4C

..........2H-GF relay

...............2S-5+D/4C

...............etc-6+D

.....2H-5+S/4H (treat 5440s as 5431s)

..........2N-GF relay

.....2S-5D/5C, any 16+, forcing

..........2N-GF relay

..........3m-DN preference

.....2N-GF diamonds

.....3C-GF, 4H/5C

.....3D-GF, 4H/5D

[straube]

The latest...

 

1C-1D (DN, GF bal, or 6+ QP unbal)

 

.....1H-

..........1S-DN, GF bal, 6+ QP heart family (I moved this since opener has right-sided hearts)

...............1N-17-21

....................2C-GF bal (leaves enough space here, but concerned about disclosing unnecessary information)

.........................2D-no major

..............................2S-4C/4D

..............................2N-5C322s

..............................3C-4m333

..............................etc-5Ds332

.........................2H-4H

..............................2N-4S

..............................3C-2434

..............................3D-3424

..............................3H-2443

..............................3S-3442

.........................2S-4S

.........................2N-5H332s

.........................3C-4M333

.........................etc-5S332s

....................2D-6+ QP H/C OR heart transfer

....................2H-6+ QP w/6+H(don't show with 5H332) OR spade transfer

....................etc-6+ QP H/D

...............2C-22+ bal

....................2D-DN, GF bal

.........................2H-24+ or GF 3-suited

..............................2S-DN

...................................2N-24+ bal

...................................etc-3-suited

.........................2S-GI majors

..............................2N-asking

...................................3C-4S/5+H

...................................3D-5S/5H

...................................3H-5S/4H

...................................3S-6S/4H

.........................2N-22-23

.........................3C-GF-4S/5+H

.........................3D-GF-5S/5H

.........................3H-GF-5S/4H

.........................3S-GF-6S/4H

....................2H-6+ QPs, H/C

....................etc-heart family at +2

...............2D-4H/5+D or 3-suited short spade

....................2S-GF relay

.........................2N-3-suited short spade

.........................3C-4H/5+D, higher

.........................3D-2452

.........................etc

...............2H-4+S/5+H (treat 4540s as 4531s)

....................2N-GF relay

...............2S-5S/5H

....................2N-GF relay

...............2N-GF clubs

...............3C-GF 4H/5C (I moved this because now opener gets to declare hearts and his bidding sounds like a canape)

...............3D-GF 4H/5D

..........1N-6+ QP, S/C, S, S/D

..........2C-6+ QP, S/H/m, S/h

..........etc-6+ QP, C/D, C, C/D/M, D ( I moved this to make sure they resolve easily below 3N)

 

 

.....1S-4+ spades

..........1N-GF relay

...............2C-clubs

...............2D-3-suited

...............2H-single-suited

...............etc-diamonds

..........2C-DN, 3+ clubs

...............2D-natural, nf

...............2H-artificial GF

...............2S-6 spades

...............other-invitational

..........2D-DN, 5+ diamonds

...............2H-artificial GF

...............2S-usually 6 spades

...............2N-to play

...............3C-to play

..........2H-DN, 6 hearts

...............2S-6 spades

...............2N-GF

...............3m-GF, 5+

...............3H-GI

..........2S-DN, 3 spades

.....1N-5+H, denies 4 spades

..........2C-relays

...............2D-4+C

...............2H-single-suited

...............etc-diamonds

..........2D-DN, 2-3 hearts (in theory, responder can show heart tolerance and then a longer minor)

...............2S-artificial GF

..........2H-DN, 0-1 hearts

...............2S-artificial GF

...............2N-a 4-cd minor, nf

....................3C-p/c

...............3m-a 5-cd minor, nf

..........2S-DN, 6+ spades

..........2N-4+ hearts, good hand for DN

..........3m-0-1 heart, to play

..........3H-4+ hearts, bad hand for DN

.....2C-5+C/4D, 6+C, 5+C/4H

..........2D-GF relay

...............2H-6+C

...............2S-5+C/4D

...............etc-5+C/4H

.....2D-6+D, 5+D/4C

..........2H-GF relay

...............2S-5+D/4C

...............etc-6+D

.....2H-5+S/4H (treat 5440s as 5431s)

..........2N-GF relay

.....2S-5D/5C, any 16+, forcing

..........2N-GF relay

..........3m-DN preference

.....2N-GF diamonds

.....3C-GF, 4D/5C

.....3D-GF, 4C/5D

.....3M-probably more could be done here to flesh out the GF minors

[akhare]

The latest...

 

1C-1D (DN, GF bal, or 6+ QP unbal)

 

 

.....1S-4+ spades

..........1N-GF relay

...............2C-clubs

...............2D-3-suited

...............2H-single-suited

...............etc-diamonds

..........2C-DN, 3+ clubs

The 2♣ as ♣ seems to be a typo. There are a lot of options, but the ♠+♣ should align with the +1 track.

 

It almost seems that there's extra one extra step left over here and you can probably fit a 5♠, 4♥ hand somewhere here.

 

One possibility is to use a variation on the original and limit the 2♥ to only 4♥, which means that opener's immediate 2♥ over 1♣ - 1♦ can show 5+♥ / 5+♠ (or viceversa).

 

2♣: ♠+♣ or 3-suited

2♦: ♠+♦

2♥: 5♠+4♥

2♠: ♠

[straube]

The 2♣ as ♣ seems to be a typo. There are a lot of options, but the ♠+♣ should align with the +1 track.

 

It almost seems that there's extra one extra step left over here and you can probably fit a 5♠, 4♥ hand somewhere here.

 

One possibility is to use a variation on the original and limit the 2♥ to only 4♥, which means that opener's immediate 2♥ over 1♣ - 1♦ can show 5+♥ / 5+♠ (or viceversa).

 

2♣: ♠+♣ or 3-suited

2♦: ♠+♦

2♥: 5♠+4♥

2♠: ♠

 

If our goal is to be no more than +1 I suppose something like...

 

2C-3-suited, 5+S/4+H

.....2H-3-suited higher OR 5+S/4H

.....2S-3-suited, middle

.....2N-5S/5H

.....etc-3-suited, low

2D-S/C

2H-S

etc-S/D

 

You could do something like that. OTOH, that's quite a bit of pressure on opener when his hand doesn't get relayed out. I mean 1C-1D, 1S-2C and now opener has lots of work to do whenever he has a GF hand. I wanted to create a "4SF" bid so that responder can basically stall and let opener can describe big shapely hands. I really don't want 1C-1D, 1S-2C, 2H be an offer to play.

 

So if you included heart hands in responder's spade rebid, they would need to be invitational or GF heart hands such that 1C-1D, 1S-2C, 2H is still "4SF" but perhaps 1C-1D, 1S-2C, 3H was invitational or whatever.

 

Trying to look at it objectively, I think your way has some compensations...because it leaves room for 1C-1D, 1S-1N which will pattern out opener's hand much better than leaping about ever can.

 

At the moment I'm inclined not to go that route. The reason is 1C-1D, 1S-2C, 3H only allows for opener to show one of many different hand patterns and can be only invitational or GF but not both. After

1C-1D, 1S-2C, 2H could handle perhaps some other invitational or GF S/H hand patterns in addition to all of the GF S/C, S, and S/D patterns, but I think space is very tight here and the less opener has to describe the better. After all, we're at the point of 2H and so far opener is only known to have four spades.

 

Another reason not to do this is that it's nice to be +0 as opposed to +1, even occasionally.

 

The last reason is it might be a bit messy. Say you determined there was space after 1C-1S, 2C to show GF 6S/4H hands but not other hands. Maybe 1C-1S, 2C-2H, 1N-3H showed GI 6S/4H hands. Well, it's an exception one would have to remember.

[akhare]

You could do something like that. OTOH, that's quite a bit of pressure on opener when his hand doesn't get relayed out. I mean 1C-1D, 1S-2C and now opener has lots of work to do whenever he has a GF hand. I wanted to create a "4SF" bid so that responder can basically stall and let opener can describe big shapely hands. I really don't want 1C-1D, 1S-2C, 2H be an offer to play.

 

OK -- seems like in this scheme, opener's 1♠ rebid can't have hands with 4♥ (with possibly the exception of 41♥44).

 

In essence, all GF hands with 4+♥ go via 1♥, right?

[straube]

OK -- seems like in this scheme, opener's 1♠ rebid can't have hands with 4♥ (with possibly the exception of 41♥44).

 

In essence, all GF hands with 4+♥ go via 1♥, right?

 

Well, all the GF hands with 5+ hearts and no major go through a 1N rebid. All the GF 4H/5m hands go through 1H. All the GI+ both majors go through 1H.

 

5M4M40 are shown as 5431s and this costs something.

 

I think this structure is making some pretty good tradeoffs, but say compared to SCREAM the 1D is more loaded. We ought to expect being +1, jumping with good hands when we could have taken the slow road opposite a positive hand, etc. The idea is that the SPs/light GF hands have auctions that hopefully more than compensate for this. Don't have to convince you that our 1H semipositives are overloaded.

[akhare]

I think this structure is making some pretty good tradeoffs, but say compared to SCREAM the 1D is more loaded. We ought to expect being +1, jumping with good hands when we could have taken the slow road opposite a positive hand, etc. The idea is that the SPs/light GF hands have auctions that hopefully more than compensate for this. Don't have to convince you that our 1H semipositives are overloaded.

The overload of 1♥ is a double whammy because it eliminates two useful 1-level bids while conveying very little distributional information. The 1♦ is overloaded in theory, but in the original version of IMP, none (?) of responder's super-positive hands are relayed out.

[straube]

In general, opener only shows a single-suited hand with 6-cd suits. Responder shows 5-cd suits only when semipositive or light GF strength. He shows 6-cd suits only when super-positive strength.

 

Changed a couple of things. I noticed we needed a spot for GI 4H/5+m so we've room for that.

 

Changed 1C-2D to be only 4H/5+C and not 4+H. Put the 5D/5C into 1C-1S so opener can show a major before getting preempted. Both of those are judgment calls and may not be improvements. Is it more important to show 4+H/5+C than 5H when you also have clubs?

 

I like that 1C-1D, 2m rebids are the same as 1C-1H, 2m rebids.

 

1C-1N, 2C relays are the same as 1C-1D, 1N-2C relays.

 

Would rather give more pattern definition to the GI+ major suit hands. Reverser/long-legged/reversed doesn't cut it.

 

Atul and I practiced this a bit today and I like the 2-5 division and we did encounter 6+ relays and got to at least one successful slam that I think we would have missed had the range been 2-6. Pd had 6 exactly. Very much like being able to nearly always relay one hand or the other.

 

Welcome any feedback, rearrangement to make memorization easier, etc. We're used to showing suits in a different order (burying the clubs for example) so it's easier if we switch that.

 

 

1C-1D (DN, GF bal or 6+ QP unbal)

.....1H (bal, 4+H or GF clubs or GF 3-suited)

..........1S-DN, GF bal OR 6+ QP heart family

...............1N-17-21 bal

....................2C-GF relay

.........................2D-no major

..............................2H-4H

..............................2S-4S

..............................2N-5H

..............................3C-4M333

..............................etc-5S

....................2D- 6+ H/C

....................2H-6+ H (6-cd)

....................etc-H/D

...............2C-22+ bal OR GI+ majors OR GF 3-suited

....................2D-DN OR GF bal

.........................2H-GF, 24+ bal OR 3-suited

..............................2S-asks

...................................2N-24+

...................................3C-spade short

...................................etc

.........................2S-GI majors

..............................2N-asks

...................................3C-reverser

...................................3D-5/5

...................................3H-unreversed

.........................2N-21-23

.........................3C-GF majors, reverser

.........................3D-GF majors, 5/5

.........................3H-GF majors, unreversed

....................2H-H/C

....................etc

...............2D-4H/5+D OR 3-suited, short spade

....................2H-to play

....................2S-GF relay

.........................2N-3-suited short spade

..............................etc-4/5+D

...............2H-5S/4H

....................2S-to play

....................2N-GF relay

...............2S-5S/5H

...............2N-GF clubs

...............3C-GI, 4H/5+C

...............3D-GI, 4H/5+D

...............3H-GF, 4H/5+C

...............3S-GF, 4H/5+D

..........1N-6+ QP, S/C, S, S/D

..........2C-6+ QP, S/H/m, S/H

..........etc-6+ QP, C/D, C, C/D/M, D

.....1S-4+ spades

..........1N-GF relay

...............2C-3-suited

...............2D-S/C

...............2H-S (6-cd)

...............2S-S/D

..........2C-DN, 3+ clubs

..........2D-DN, 5+ diamonds (& 3 more diamonds than clubs)

..........2H-DN, 6+ hearts

..........2S-DN, 3+ spades

.....1N-5+ hearts, denies 4+ spades

..........2C-GF relay

...............2D-4+ clubs

...............2H-6-cd

...............2S-5D

...............etc-5+/4D

..........2D-DN, 2-3 hearts

...............2H-to play

....................2S-6S/2H

....................etc-

...............2S-artificial GF

...............other-natural, invitational

..........2H-DN, 0-1 hearts

...............2S-artificial GF

....................other-natural, to play

..........2S-DN, 0-1 hearts, 6+ spades

..........2N-DN, 0-1 hearts, 5+/5+ minors

..........3m-DN, 0-1 hearts, 6-cd+

.....2C-5+C/4D, 6+C, 5+C/4H unbalanced

..........2D-GF relay

...............2H-6-cd C

...............2S-4D

...............etc-4H

.....2D-6+D, 5+D/4C

..........2H-GF relay

.....2H-4S/5H (treat 4540 and 4504 as 4531 and 4513)

.....2S-5+C/5+D, 16+

..........2N-GF relay

..........other-DN natural

.....2N-GF diamonds

.....3C-GF 5C/4D

.....3D-GF 5D/4C

 

 

1C-1H

.....1S relays, if not GF will be any hand with 4S or 5H

..........1N-bal, S/C, or 3-suited short in a red suit)

...............2C-GF relay

...............2D-3-suited, 2-5 QPs OR bal, 2-5 QPs

....................2H-relays

.........................2S-3-suited

..............................2N-relays

...................................3C-heart short

...................................3D-4414

...................................etc

.........................2N-4H

.........................3C-4234

.........................3D-4324

.........................3H-4243

.........................3S-4342

.........................3N-4333

...............2H-S/D reverser

...............etc-S/D

..........2C-S/D

...............2D-GF relay

...............2H-5H, natural and not forcing

...............2S-4S, minimum

..........2D-S, 5-cd+

...............2H-GF relay

....................2S-5332s

....................2N-6322s

....................3C-higher

....................etc

...............2S-nf, 5H, 2-3 spades

...............2N-nf, 5H, 0-1 spade

..........2H-S/H reverser

..........etc

.....1N-17-20 bal, not 4 spades

.....2C-same hands as 1C-1D, 2C

.....2D-same hands as 1C-1D, 2D

.....2H-6H, single-suited

..........2S-GF relay

..........2N-inv

..........3m-inv

..........3H-inv

..........3S-inv

.....2S-5C/5D, any strength

..........2N-GF relay

.....2N-6H/4m

.....3L-inv

 

 

 

1C-1S, 2-5 QPs, 5D/4C, 5D/4H, 6D, bal

.....1N-17-19 balanced (includes 5M332s and 4S(5m31))

..........2C-stayman (could be 4H/5D weak)

...............2D-not 4H

...............2H-4H min

....................3H-4H inv

..........2D-5D/4C or 6D min

..........2H-1354, max

..........2S-3154, max

..........2N-inv

..........3C-5D/5C max

..........3D-6D max

..........3H-0355 max

..........3S-3055 max

 

.....2C-GF relay

..........2D-bal, 2-4 QPs

...............2H-relay

....................2S-four hearts

.........................2N-relay

..............................3C-2434

..............................3D-3424

..............................3H-2443

..............................3S-3442

..............................3N-3433

....................2N-5C332 or 4C333

....................3C-4m4m

....................3D-2353

.........................3H-3253

.........................3S-3352

.........................3N-3343

...............2H-6-cd diamonds

...............2S-5+D/4C

...............2N-5+D/5+C

...............etc-5+D/4H

.....2D-6+M OR 4H canape or 1444, 16-19

..........P-min, 6+D

..........2H-min, <=3H

...............P-6H

...............2S-6S

...............2N-1-4-4-4

...............3C-4H, 5+C, unbal

...............3D-4H, 5+D, unbal

..........2S-min, 3+H, <=3S

...............P-6S

...............2N-1-4-4-4

...............3C-4H, 5+C, unbal

...............3D-4H, 5+D, unbal

...............3H-min, 6H

..........2N-max, asking

...............3C-4H, 5+C, unbal

...............3D-4H, 5+D unbal

...............3H-6H

...............3S-6S

...............3N-1-4-4-4

..........3C-5D, 4+C, forcing

..........3D-6D, forcing

.....2H-16-19, 5H, side suit

..........P-2 or 3 hearts, min if 3

..........2S-asks second suit

...............2N-4 spades

..........2N-max, 2H

..........3C-5D/4+C, GF

..........3D-6D

..........3H-raise

.....2S-16-19, 5S, side suit

..........P-2 or 3 spades, min if 3

..........2N-asks second suit

...............P-min 5S/4H

....................3C-4+ clubs

....................3D-4+ diamonds

....................3H-min, 5+ hearts

....................3S-max, 5+ hearts

....................3N-max, 4H

..........3C-5D/4+C, GF

..........3D-6D OR 5D/4H, GF

..........3H-4H, GF bal

..........3S-raise

.....2N-16-19, 5/4+ minors

.....3m-16-19, 6+ m

.....3M-invitational

 

1C-1N, 2-5 QPs, 5+H, denies 4+ spades

.....2C-GF relay

..........same as 1C-1D, 1N

.....2D-5+ spades

..........2H-min, 0-1 spades

..........2S-min, 2 spades

..........2N-GF, 2 spades

..........3C-GF, 4+ clubs

..........3D-GF, 4+ diamonds

..........3H-GF, 6+H, 0-1 spades

..........3S-min, 3 spades

..........3N-36xx, COG

..........4C-diamond splinter

..........4D-club splinter

..........4H-to play

..........4S-to play

.....2H-minimum, usually only 2 hearts

..........2S-5H/5D, invitational

..........3H invitational

..........other-natural GF

.....2S-5+D, 5+C

..........2N-GF relay

..........3m-to play

..........3H-to play

..........3S-stopper ask

.....2N-0-1 hearts, minimum (e.g. 4144, 3145, 3154, 4045, 4054)

.....3m-0-1 hearts, 6+ minor, minimum

.....3H-3+ hearts, minimum

 

1C-2C, 2-5 QPs, 5+ clubs unbalanced

.....2D-GF relay

..........2H-4D/5+C

..........etc-6C

.....2H-5+ hearts, needs tolerance

..........P-2 hearts, minimum

..........2S-2 hearts, maximum

..........2N-0-1 hearts, 4 diamonds, minimum

..........3C-0-1 hearts, 6+ clubs, minimum

..........3D-0-1 hearts, short weak diamonds, 6+ clubs, GF

..........3H-3 hearts, minimum

..........3S-0-1 hearts, short weak spades, 6+ clubs, GF

..........3N-0-1 hearts

..........4C-3H, good clubs, GF

..........4D-3 hearts and singleton or void spades, GF

..........4H-3 hearts and a maximum

.....2S-5+ spades, needs tolerance

..........P-2 spades, minimum

...............2N-0-1 spades, both minors, minimum

...............3C-0-2 spades, 6+ clubs, minimum

...............3D-0-2 spades, short weak diamonds (hence 6 clubs), GF

....................3H-5 hearts

...............3H-0-2 spades, short weak hearts, GF

...............3S-3 spades, minimum

.....2N-0-2 clubs, minimum

.....3C-3+ clubs, minimum

.....3L-natural and invitational

 

1C-2D 2-5 QPs, 4H, 5+C

.....2H-GF relay

.....2S-5+ spades, needs tolerance

..........P-2 spades, minimum

..........2N-0-1 spades, minimum

..........3C-0-1 spades, 6+ clubs, minimum

..........3D-0-2 spades, short weak diamonds, GF

..........3H-0-1 spades, 6+ clubs, maximum

..........3S-3 spades, minimum

..........3N-suggests a contact

..........4C-3406, good clubs

..........4S-3415

.....2N-no fit, minimum

.....3C-3+ clubs, minimum

.....3D-natural, nf

.....3H-4+ hearts, minimum

.....3S-natural, invitational

 

1C-2H 3-suited, short spade

.....2S-GF relay

.....2N-minimum, misfit

 

1C-2S-3-suited, club short

[sieong]

I think you are missing 5♥332 semi-positive for responder after 1♣ - 1N - 2♣. I suppose one could try 1♣ - 1N - 2♣ - 2♥ as 5+♥, but in our experience single-suited +1 track is quite a bit of a loss to the standard track.

[straube]

I think you are missing 5♥332 semi-positive for responder after 1♣ - 1N - 2♣. I suppose one could try 1♣ - 1N - 2♣ - 2♥ as 5+♥, but in our experience single-suited +1 track is quite a bit of a loss to the standard track.

 

Thanks. I couldn't figure out why you guys put the 5H/5C hands into 2D (other than showing 9 cds right away) and Adam explained it was largely to do with finding space for the single-suited and that makes a lot of sense. 2D does have ample room for the 5/5s, too. Although you might make 2S the relay bid here and then you'd be +0. Hard when you want to stop in two spades.

 

Hope you don't mind our tinkering with your system. It's like 90% IMPrecision and 10% SCREAM thrown together. Anyway, we have to reorder the relays to what we're accustomed...different suit orders and such. Feel free if you have any other suggestions.

[straube]

Slept on it and seeing why you use 1C-2D as 4+H/5+C.

 

Any advice for what to do with the 3-suited semipositives such as 1C-2H short spades? There's no way to invite opposite that. Each hand has to decide whether to force game or not.

 

Also how has 1C-2S as 5/5 minors worked? Same issue for that bid whether it's minors or short clubs as we're exploring. No way to invite.

[straube]

We're trying...

 

1C-2H (3-suited short spade, 2-5 QPs)

.....2S-GF relay

.....2N-minimum, misfit

.....3C-weakness signal, wants to play in a suit

..........3D-p/c

..........other-natural, GF

.....3D-invites

.....3H-invites

 

1C-2S (3-suited short club, 2-5 QPs)

.....2N-minimum, misfit

.....3C-GF relay

.....3D-weakness signal, wants to play in a suit

..........3H-p/c

..........other-natural, GF

.....3M-invites

 

1C-2N+ (6+ QPs and 6+ hearts, single-suited)

 

This now means that...

 

1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N-

.....2C-GF ask, usually balanced

.....2D-H/C, 6+ QPs OR DN with 5+ hearts (at least this bid promises 4 or more hearts whatever the strength)

.....2H-DN with 5+ spades

.....etc-H/D, 6+ QPs

 

So we still have a 2-way bid of 2D here but 2H is no longer 2-way and always shows the weak hand with spades.

This has occasionally but rarely been a problem for us...when a DN hand with a major wants to try for game, especially when opposite a super-accept.

 

So a partial fix when responder has hearts...

 

1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N-2D, 2S can be the super-accept and now responder continues to pattern out with the good hand or signs off in 3H or 4H with the bad hand. Of course we're now +2 :(

[akhare]

We're trying...

 

1C-2H (3-suited short spade, 2-5 QPs)

.....2S-GF relay

.....2N-minimum, misfit

.....3C-weakness signal, wants to play in a suit

..........3D-p/c

..........other-natural, GF

.....3D-invites

.....3H-invites

 

1C-2S (3-suited short club, 2-5 QPs)

.....2N-minimum, misfit

.....3C-GF relay

.....3D-weakness signal, wants to play in a suit

..........3H-p/c

..........other-natural, GF

.....3M-invites

 

The flaw in the weakness signal are that:

 

1) We can't play in 3♣

2) Responder can't show 5♥ and offer a COG over 2♠

3) It's yet another obscure exception to remember for a very infrequent response

 

In short, the disadvantages might outweigh the proffered advantages and the frequency is way too small to make it worthwhile

 

Contrast this with a simpler approach where prime 18 / all 19 points just bid game. Yes, on a bad day, we may land in a game opposite as little as AXXX XXXX XXXX x, but are the odds frequent enough to really matter?

[straube]

I tallied hands for 1C responses. We have more 1D responses than Imprecision because we've put the superpositives with 6+ QPs into the 1D response. Nothing really requires us to do so, but I like this division. I'm a little disappointed to see so many 1D responses. It would argue for putting the 6 QP hands into the semipositive/light GF hands but...

 

1D-55%

1H-17%

1S-15%

1N-7%

2C-5%

2D-1%

 

I also tallied opener's rebids after an 1D response. I like this distribution much better.

 

1H-42%

1S-23%

1N-10%

2C-12%

2D-9%

2H-4%

[straube]

My latest tallies for 200 hands....

 

1. Responses to 1C

 

1D DN responses-17.5%

1D 6 QP responses-15%

1D 7+ QP responses-18.5%

 

1D-50.5%

1H-16.5%

1S-20%

1N-7%

2C-2.5%

2D-2%

2N-1.5%

 

I think the slight change here is that GF balanced are not bidding 1D unless they have 6 QPs. Btw, 2N shows 6H bal and 6+ QPs

 

2. Opener's rebids after 1C-1D

 

1H-47%

1S-27%

1N-9%

2C-6%

2D-4%

2H-4%

2S-1%

 

 

3. Responder's rebids after 1C-1D, 1H

 

1S with DN-34%

1S with bal-36%

1S with 6+ and heart/othe-9%

 

1S-79%

1N-5% (S, S/m, 6+ QPs)

2C-2% (S/H)

2D-5% (C/D)

2H-2% (C

2N-2% (C/D/M)

3H-2% (D)

3N-2% (D)

 

or another way of looking at it...

DN responses-34%

GF bal responses-36%

6+QP unbal responses-30%

 

Why do I bother with this? Well Adam groups 2-6 QP responses into his semipositive/light GF responses (not 1D) and that would certainly flatten out the distribution of responses. The 1D response would be cut down to 35% or so which from a Fibonacci standpoint would be much better. OTOH, since we're exploring having 1C-1D, 1H as including all balanced hands, if we had no 6 QP hands in the mix, then we'd just cut our unbalanced responses almost in half. 1C-1D, 1H would continue with 1S almost 90% of the time. Having it 79% of the time feels wrong enough. 90% seems far worse. Btw, I like our auctions after 1C-1D, 1H but having the 1S bid be so high just makes me wonder if there isn't a problem somewhere earlier (the problem could be with 1C-1D, 1H or 1C-1D or even 1C)

 

So all this may point to Adam being right after all that 1C-1D, 1H should show primarily heart hands but it's really not clear to me at all. Both ways could be acceptable continuations. I think in an uncontested auction, I like our division of 2-5 and 6+ QPs. 2-6 is a little wide I think and opener may lose out on knowing of 6 QPs when space is tight. In a contest auction really not sure. In fact it might be better to hold off with the 6 QP hands because the distributional information they might give round 1 is really not so much (usually whether responder has 4+ spades or not) while passing and then doubling in later puts us clearly in a GF.

 

Any comment from Adam?

[awm]

I'll comment that our balanced hand relays are not very good. This is mostly a function of the available space and the number of patterns to cover. The upshot is that we are often unable to ask RP below 3nt when relaying a balanced shape. This is part of why we have a tighter limit on the balanced hands than others...

 

I also think you may underestimate the value of finding heart fits when responder has double negative, especially in such a way that opener knows the size of the fit.

[straube]

Thanks for your help. It's not really clear to me how opener rebids after 1C-1D. What do you do with....

 

1. 4432 18ct

2. 4432 21 ct

3. 4243 21 ct

4. 5332 18 ct

5. 3532 18 ct

7. 2425 18 ct

 

I assume that you mean that responder's balanced hands are difficult to ascertain QPs for. I thought you used the same range (2-6) for balanced hands, but perhaps you are responding 1D with the GF hands (possibly 6 or even 5 QPs)?