Imprecision idea

[straube]

I'm interested in playing Imprecision's 1H+ responses to a strong club. As many of you know, they are...

 

1H-2-6 QPs, 4+ spades

1S-2-6 QPs, 0-3 spades, bal including 5m332s OR 5+D

1N-2-6 QPs, 5+ hearts, but denies 4+ spades and 5+ clubs

2C-2-6 QPs, 5+ clubs unbal (6+ clubs or 4D/5C, not 6C322)

2D-2-6 QPs, 4+ hearts, 5+ clubs

2H-3-suited, short in spades

2S-3-suited, short in clubs

other-6322

 

Now 1C-1D shows either a DN, bal GF, unbal hand with 7+ QPs or any hand that would like to ask.

 

After 1C-1D, 1N shows a balanced hand and responder uses a strong NT structure to handle the DNs and the 7+ unbalanced hands. I'd like opener to be able to relay these good hands.

 

One idea is...

 

1C-1D....

 

1H-various

.....1S-DN or GF balanced or (C/D, C, 3-suited short M, D)

..........1N-17-20 balanced

...............2C-GF relay (if we need a single suit invite for a DN, we can start with this and then break relay)

...............2D-C/D OR heart transfer

...............2H-C OR spade transfer

...............2S-3-suited, short M

...............etc-D OR transfers

..........2C-GF OR 21-23 bal

...............2D-DN OR GF bal

....................2N-21-23 bal

...............2H-C/D (up 2 steps now)

...............2S-C

...............2N-3-suited, short M

...............etc-D

..........2D-4H/5D

...............2H-GF relay

..........2H-5H332, 16-19

...............2S-DN, 5 spades

...............2N-GF relay

...............3m-6m

..........2S-1-4-4-4

...............2N-GF relay

..........2N-24+ bal

.....1N-H/C, H, H/D

..........2C-relay (opener can now captain these 7+ QP hands, we are now +1)

.....2C-3-suited short m, S/H

..........2D-relay

.....2D-S/C

.....2H-S

.....etc

1S-4+ spades

.....P-DN, 2 spades

.....1N-GF relay

.....2C-DN, 0-1 spade

..........P-clubs

..........2D-five+ diamonds

..........2H-four+ hearts (5S/4H or 4441)

.....2D-DN, 6 diamonds

.....2H-DN, 6 hearts

1N-5+ hearts

.....2C-GF relay

.....2D-DN, 2+ fit

.....2H-DN, no fit

2C-5+C, could have 5+D or 4H

.....2D-GF relay

..........2H-4H

..........2S-5D/5C

..........etc-6C

2D-5D/4C or 6D

.....2H-GF relay

2H-4S/5+H

.....2N-GF relay

2S-4D/5+C, lower short

.....2N-GF relay

2N-24+ bal

3C-1345

.....3S-QP ask

3D-1246

.....3S-QP ask

3H-0346

.....3S-QP ask

3S-1147

3N-0247

 

So again, what I like about this is that opener can be captain more relay auctions. After 1C-1D, 1H responder can show most of his shapely patterns at +1. Although the patterns are +1, the fact that responder has a super-positive (7+ QPs) means that we will actually be +0 or -1 (depending on one's base) after QPs have been shown. After 1C-1D, 1H-1S opener still doesn't know whether responder has a DN or not. Opener's rebid of 1N or 2C preserves the ability to be captain for another family of hands (C/D, C, 3-suited short M, D) which is why a delayed 2N (21-23) was switched with an immediate 2N (24+). Occasionally opener will have a very big hand and will "get in the way" of responder. Pretty much this only happens after 1C-1D, 2N (24+ bal)

 

Handling opener's 4D/5+C hands has been a problem. I could flip them with the 5C/5D hands, but it will cost a step.

 

One small thing is that since opener has a way to GF with spades, it might pay to make 1C-1D, 1S nf. The goal is not to play 1S so much as space is at a premium and passing with (say) two spades can add meaning to responder's other DNs.

 

I'm mostly spending time on "math" headaches...especially when and whether to split 5332s from balanced hands. I'd appreciate anything constructive about the whole approach, where it might be improved and so on.

[awm]

You need to be a bit more careful with the double-negative hands I think. Your 3x rebids are quite disastrous for those hands, and some of the other sequences are also difficult (i.e. 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-2♦ showing reds and now you cannot correct to hearts because that is relay or 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-2♠ and you are forced to the three-level with possibly no fit). There are also some sequences where finding a heart fit is really valuable; you will often have responder stalling such that the first time he can show a fit is the three-level, which can get too high opposite a minimum opener and also removes space for game tries.

 

You also have some issues with balanced GF opposite super-strong opener (i.e. 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦ and now you can't really relay), although this is rare. Of course, you can effectively slam force there, but negotiating grand may be tricky (you are still slightly ahead of standard bidding).

 

The presumption seems to be that relaying at +1 is much better than whatever your notrump system is, to the degree that you're willing to sacrifice some results on the double-negative hands and the rare 9+ opposite super-strong opener. I guess depending on your notrump system that might be true, but I feel like I get pretty good results out of mine. Note that you can easily install 2♣ GF relay over natural 1NT (especially since "invite" hands are ruled out here)... so this seems unconvincing to me.

[straube]

Thanks for reviewing. I tweaked this to get rid of the higher bids of 4D/5C (hard to find something equally useful for both DN and GF. I let opener show both red suits when he's 3-suited short spades and reverse hearts and diamonds. Frustrating not to be able to show 0544 vs 2470.

 

Our NT structure squeezes about all we can out of things and yet we can't differentiate long-legged shapes...for instance 5530 vs 6502 are the same. We can't show voids at all, can't show 1246 and have to use the 4-level to approximate as 1336. Can't show 7-cd suits. I think we do well to be able to give pd the approximate shapes of 4531 vs 5413 vs 3154 vs 5143 vs 4144. At the point of 1N, even if you have all the machinery devoted to relaying shapes you are +3 compared to standard symmetric...so there's just a math consideration that one can't get around no matter how well one's system is organized.

 

Plus there's the issue of dual captaincy. Even if we were able to show say a 0454 (which we can't), we have to stop, ask opener's opinion on the strain/level and then sometimes override when we have compensating strength. It's very hard/impossible to set this up so that responder zooms into relay points or overrides with relay points...and at least part of that is that we've really only shown approximate shape...may be certain that we have extra length pd doesn't know about...may be certain we have a fit when pd is unaware. It's just very difficult. Hard to find grands, too, when we don't know about voids or specific card holdings.

 

+1 is no picnic, but some systems (Moscito) deal with +1 all the time and seem to manage.

 

So that's why I'm concerned about not having relays here. If you were as concerned as me about missing them, how would you go about arranging this?

 

 

1C-1D....

 

1H-various

.....1S-DN or GF balanced or (C/D, C, C/D/M, D)

..........1N-17-20 balanced

...............2C-GF relay (if we need a single suit invite for a DN, we can start with this and then break relay)

...............2D-C/D OR heart transfer

...............2H-C OR spade transfer

...............2S-3-suited, short M

...............etc-D OR transfers

..........2C-GF OR 21-23 bal

...............2D-DN OR GF bal

....................2N-21-23 bal

...............2H-C/D (up 2 steps now)

...............2S-C

...............2N-3-suited, short M

...............etc-D

..........2D-4H/5D OR 3-suited short spades

...............2S-GF relay

....................2N-3-suited short spades

....................etc-at +1

..........2H-5H332, 16-19

...............2S-DN, 5 spades

...............2N-GF relay

...............3m-6m

..........2S-5D/5C

...............2N-GF relay

..........2N-24+ bal

.....1N-H/C, H, H/D

..........2C-relay (opener can now captain these 7+ QP hands, we are now +1)

.....2C-3-suited short m, S/H

..........2D-relay

.....2D-S/C

.....2H-S

.....etc

1S-4+ spades

.....P-DN, 2 spades

.....1N-GF relay

.....2C-DN, 0-1 spade

..........P-clubs

..........2D-five+ diamonds

..........2H-four+ hearts (5S/4H or 4441)

.....2D-DN, 6 diamonds

.....2H-DN, 6 hearts

1N-5+ hearts

.....2C-GF relay

.....2D-DN, 2+ fit

.....2H-DN, no fit

2C-5+C, could have 4D or 4H

.....2D-GF relay

..........2H-4D (reverser)

..........2S-4H (reverser)

..........etc-6C

2D-5D/4C or 6D

.....2H-GF relay

2H-4S/5+H

.....2N-GF relay

2S-

2N-24+ bal

[awm]

For opener's rebids after 1♣-1♦ how about:

 

1♠ = 4+♠ unbalanced, forcing one round

1NT = 5+♥ forcing one round

2♣ = 5+♣ maybe four of a red suit, NF

2♦ = 5+♦ maybe four clubs, NF

2♥ = GF one-suited hand with clubs, too strong for 2♣ rebid

2♠ = both minors at least 5/5, forcing one round

2NT+ = GF one-suited hand with diamonds, too strong for 2♦ rebid

 

The idea here is to take as many unbalanced hands as possible out of 1♥, while still retaining the ability of responder to sign off at a reasonable level (with the weak hand) or relay effectively (with the strong hand). The remaining hands in 1♥:

 

(1) Balanced any strength

(2) 4♥ and 5+♦

(3) 5+♥ and 4♠

(4) Three suiters that can't bid 1♠ (just short spades really)

(5) 4♥ and 5+♣ too strong for 2♣ rebid

(6) 5+/4 in the minors either way, too strong for 2m rebid

 

After 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠:

 

1NT = balanced minimum (2♣ relays, otherwise systems on)

2♦ = 4♥ and 5+♦ or three-suited short spades and NF (2♠ is the relay here)

2♥ = 5+♥ and 4♠ and NF (2NT is the relay here)

2♠ = 4♥ and 5+♦ GF

2NT = balanced 21-23

3♣+ = 4♣ and 5+♦ GF

 

2♣ = various GF hands without 5+♦; 2♦ relays and:

 

2♥ = 5+♥ and 4♠ GF or three-suited short spades and GF

2♠ = 4♥ and 5+♣ GF

2NT = balanced 24+

3♣+ = 4♦ ad 5+♣ GF

 

This seems to handle all of opener's hands at +1 while still letting us out at a reaosnable level on the signoffs.

[awm]

You claimed to be relaying at +1 after 1♣-1♦-1♥-1NT+ but I don't actually see it. You need to capture all possible patterns except for balanced hands, and the normal +1 track starts at 1♠. I don't think the balanced hands give you a whole call here, and in particular I don't see how your scheme works out. It seems like you can do something like let the direct 2♥+ handle some 7+R hands; the three-suiters short in a black suit would start with 1♦.

 

Now after 1♣-1♦-1♥ you have (just counting space here, not advocating this arrangement):

 

2♣+ = anything that rebids 1♠ (spades) on the +1 track

1NT = anything that rebids 2♦+ on the +1 track

direct 2♥+ = anything that rebids 2♣ on the +1 track

 

This leaves the 1NT rebid on the +1 track, which is balanced hands (that rebid 1♠ here) and also some other hand type (maybe three-suiters?) that you will have to shoehorn into 1♠ as well.

[straube]

You claimed to be relaying at +1 after 1♣-1♦-1♥-1NT+ but I don't actually see it. You need to capture all possible patterns except for balanced hands, and the normal +1 track starts at 1♠. I don't think the balanced hands give you a whole call here, and in particular I don't see how your scheme works out. It seems like you can do something like let the direct 2♥+ handle some 7+R hands; the three-suiters short in a black suit would start with 1♦.

 

Now after 1♣-1♦-1♥ you have (just counting space here, not advocating this arrangement):

 

2♣+ = anything that rebids 1♠ (spades) on the +1 track

1NT = anything that rebids 2♦+ on the +1 track

direct 2♥+ = anything that rebids 2♣ on the +1 track

 

This leaves the 1NT rebid on the +1 track, which is balanced hands (that rebid 1♠ here) and also some other hand type (maybe three-suiters?) that you will have to shoehorn into 1♠ as well.

 

Pretty sure I'm +1. I'm basically grouping into 5 families...

 

bal

minor collection C/D, C, 3-suited short M, D

major collection 3-suited short M, S/H

hearts H/C, H, H/D

spades S/C, S, S/D

 

so the balanced hands rebid 1C-1D, 1H-1S

 

The minor collection bids 1C-1D, 1H-1S and then patterns out after a likely 1N or 2C bid. Should opener do something else, responder won't show these shapes but will become captain himself.

 

So that leaves 3 families...

 

So 1C-1D, 1H, 1N handling H/C, H, H/D (for example) is +1 from standard symmetric. So those three families are +1. I guess the minor collection will be +1 when opener rebids 1N but +2 when opener rebids 2C.

 

Thanks for your previous post. I'm at work and haven't had time to digest it.

[straube]

For opener's rebids after 1♣-1♦ how about:

 

1♠ = 4+♠ unbalanced, forcing one round

1NT = 5+♥ forcing one round

2♣ = 5+♣ maybe four of a red suit, NF

2♦ = 5+♦ maybe four clubs, NF

2♥ = GF one-suited hand with clubs, too strong for 2♣ rebid

2♠ = both minors at least 5/5, forcing one round

2NT+ = GF one-suited hand with diamonds, too strong for 2♦ rebid

 

The idea here is to take as many unbalanced hands as possible out of 1♥, while still retaining the ability of responder to sign off at a reasonable level (with the weak hand) or relay effectively (with the strong hand). The remaining hands in 1♥:

 

(1) Balanced any strength

(2) 4♥ and 5+♦

(3) 5+♥ and 4♠

(4) Three suiters that can't bid 1♠ (just short spades really)

(5) 4♥ and 5+♣ too strong for 2♣ rebid

(6) 5+/4 in the minors either way, too strong for 2m rebid

 

After 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠:

 

1NT = balanced minimum (2♣ relays, otherwise systems on)

2♦ = 4♥ and 5+♦ or three-suited short spades and NF (2♠ is the relay here)

2♥ = 5+♥ and 4♠ and NF (2NT is the relay here)

2♠ = 4♥ and 5+♦ GF

2NT = balanced 21-23

3♣+ = 4♣ and 5+♦ GF

 

2♣ = various GF hands without 5+♦; 2♦ relays and:

 

2♥ = 5+♥ and 4♠ GF or three-suited short spades and GF

2♠ = 4♥ and 5+♣ GF

2NT = balanced 24+

3♣+ = 4♦ ad 5+♣ GF

 

This seems to handle all of opener's hands at +1 while still letting us out at a reaosnable level on the signoffs.

 

So the GF 5+M suit hands start with either a 1S or 1N rebid...and then hearing a DN response jump shift to force game (or jump rebid to game directly). My first impression is that I'm amazed at the GF 2-suited patterns opener can show...as well as starting a GF with clubs as low as 2H.

 

I've a preference for 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C to include the 21-23 point hands. They are much higher frequency than the 24+ and they allow responder to unfold the minor family...

 

1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C-

 

.....2H-C/D at +2

.....2S-C at

.....2N-C/D/M

.....etc-D

 

Still looking. First impression is that I like it.

[straube]

Thinking 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C-2D, 2H should announce the 24+. This lets responder relay the minor family after opener's 2C rebid.

 

So after 1C-1D

 

1♠ = 4+♠ unbalanced, forcing one round, handles only the GF five+ spade hands

1NT = 5+♥ forcing one round, handles the GF heart hands

2♣ = 5+♣ maybe four of a red suit, NF

2♦ = 5+♦ maybe four clubs, NF

2♥ = 4S/5+H, nf

.....2N-GF relay

2♠ = both minors at least 5/5, forcing one round

2NT = GF one-suited hand with clubs, too strong for 2C rebid

3C+ GF 5+C/4D

 

1C-1D, 1H showing...

 

(1) Balanced any strength

(2) 4♥ and 5+♦

(3) GF diamonds

(4) GF 3-suiters

(5) 4♥ and 5+♣ too strong for 2♣ rebid

(6) GF 5D/4C

(7) GF 4S/5H

 

After 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠:

 

1NT = balanced minimum

.....2C-relays, possible DN meanings but mostly GF balanced

.....2D-C/D at +1

.....2H-C

.....2S-C/D/M

.....etc-D

2C-bal 21+ and?

.....2D-bal or DN

..........2H-GF balanced or GF 3-suited?

...............2S-DN

...............2N-GF balanced

..........2S-GF 4H/5+C

..........2N-21-23

..........etc-GF 4S/5+C

.....2H-C/D at +2

.....2S-C at +2

.....2N-C/D/M at +2

.....etc-D

2♦ = 4♥ and 5+♦ or three-suited short spades and NF (2♠ is the relay here)

2♥ = GF, 4S and 5H

2♠ = 4♥ and 5+♦ GF

2N = GF diamonds

3C+ = 4♣ and 5+♦ GF

[akhare]

 

After 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠:

 

1NT = balanced minimum

.....2C-relays, possible DN meanings but mostly GF balanced

.....2D-C/D at +1

.....2H-C

.....2S-C/D/M

.....etc-D

 

Isn't the inability to play in 2M with a DN hand a concern?

 

Instead of showing the really good minor super positives with 2D+, it might be best to have them start off with 2C and pattern out opener's hand. Granted, having the unbalanced hand ask isn't ideal, but such hands should be far and few in between.

[straube]

Isn't the inability to play in 2M with a DN hand a concern?

 

Instead of showing the really good minor super positives with 2D+, it might be best to have them start off with 2C and pattern out opener's hand. Granted, having the unbalanced hand ask isn't ideal, but such hands should be far and few in between.

 

You mean when responder has a DN and a 5-cd major? He can transfer after 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N. The transfers are 2-way. They are either transfers or a relay of the minor family hands.

 

Opener can get out in hearts (1C-1D, 1N-DN, 2H) or spades 1C-1D, 1S-2X, 2S.

[akhare]

You mean when responder has a DN and a 5-cd major? He can transfer after 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N. The transfers are 2-way. They are either transfers or a relay of the minor family hands.

 

Opener can get out in hearts (1C-1D, 1N-DN, 2H) or spades 1C-1D, 1S-2X, 2S.

 

Ah OK -- the 2-way transfers make sense.

[straube]

Something I think I'm learning is that awm is sure right about 1C-1D, 1S needing to be forcing. It has to take all or most of the load for GF hands with spades. It also seems like knowing just how many spades responder has it very important. Almost this important...

 

1C-1D, 1S-

.....1N-GF relay

.....2C-DN, 0-1 spades

.....2D-DN, 2 spades

.....2H-DN, 3 spades

.....2S-DN, 4 spades

 

The thing is opener is seldom interested in responder's Qxxxxx suit. He has better suits and wants to know which suit responder can better support. In any case, knowing how many spades makes further fit-finding decisions easier...

 

1C-1D, 1S

.....2C-0-1 spades

..........P-5 clubs

..........2D-usually 4 diamonds

..........2H-4 hearts

..........2S-6 spades

..........2N-hm. Some GF 4(4441) I suppose

..........3C-longer clubs, GF

..........3D-longer diamonds, GF

..........3H-5s/4h, gf

..........3S-invitational?

 

similar for the other responses.

 

I'd be interested to hear what Adam is thinking. I think a lot of the other depends on how 1C-1D, 1S is handled.

[awm]

Seems what I was missing before is that you stated multiple times that 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠ is "double negative or balanced GF" but actually it also includes minor-oriented 7+R GF hands. Could use some clarification.

 

As for the rebids after 1♣-1♦-1♠, I'm not convinced that distinguishing the number of spades is right at this point. There are some problems with your method such as:

 

(1) Responder has 5+♥; you could have a 5-3 or 6-3 heart fit (and even a game) with no way to find it

(2) Responder has a 6+m and again it's hard to find your minor fit

(3) Opener has 5224 or 5314 and no rebid after 1♣-1♦-1♠-2♣.

 

It seems like a more natural scheme like the one I use (2♦/2♥ are 0-2♠ with 5+ in the bid suit, 2♣ is 3+♣ and 0-2♠) is much more likely to find fits effectively.

[straube]

Yes, I should have clarified. 1C-1D, 1H-1S is DN, bal, or the minor family.

 

Any more thoughts on the math?

 

Seems pretty clear to me that 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C should handle all the balanced hands including 24+.

 

As we "spin off" hands, it seems to me that opener has to "spin off" his GF hands.

 

So 1C-1D, spin off 2S and higher for certain GF hands

 

1C-1D, 1H-1S, spin off 2S and higher for other GF hands

 

1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C-2D, spin off 2S and 3C and higher for other GF hands (2N would be 21-23)

 

The reason he spins these off is that he's reserving lower bids for showing his own weaker hands and also retaining the ability to be captain with the balanced hands.

 

Now 1C-1D, 1N seems to be well-equiped to handle 5+H GF hands...including even GF 4S/5H hands.

 

OTOH, 1C-1D, 1S has to handle a lot of the GF spade hands, but it just can't handle them all. After all 1C-1D, 1S-2C, 2D, 2H, and 2S are all wiped out for DN nonsense so that leaves opener 2N and higher to sort out all of the spade hands. There is not enough room.

 

So we can put the GF 4S/5H hands into 1C-1D, 1N. Maybe even the GF 5S/5H hands if it helps. But we need to borrow other machinery for the GF spade hands.

 

Any more ideas?

[akhare]

OTOH, 1C-1D, 1S has to handle a lot of the GF spade hands, but it just can't handle them all. After all 1C-1D, 1S-2C, 2D, 2H, and 2S are all wiped out for DN nonsense so that leaves opener 2N and higher to sort out all of the spade hands. There is not enough room.

 

So we can put the GF 4S/5H hands into 1C-1D, 1N. Maybe even the GF 5S/5H hands if it helps. But we need to borrow other machinery for the GF spade hands.

 

Any more ideas?

 

After the 1C - 1D - 1S - 2x DN response, is it really necessary for opener to show shape? One can allocate a single bid(say 2N) establish a GF.

 

Alternatively, 2N can some sort of puppet and direct bids show two suited GF hands etc...

[straube]

.....1H-

..........1S-DN, GF bal, minor family

...............1N-17-21

....................2C-GF bal

....................etc-minor family

...............2C-22+ bal

....................2D-DN, GF bal

.........................2H-24+ or GF 3-suited

..............................2S-DN

...................................2N-24+ bal

...................................etc-3-suited

.........................2S-GF majors

.........................2N-22-23

....................etc-minor family at +2

...............2D-4H/5+D or 3-suited short spade

...............2H-4+S/5+H (treat 4540s as 4531s)

...............2S-5S/5H

...............2N-GF 4D/5C

...............3C-GF clubs

...............3D-GF 5D/4C, higher

 

 

.....1S-4+ spades

..........1N-GF relay

...............2C-clubs

...............2D-3-suited

...............2H-single-suited

...............etc-diamonds

..........2C-DN, 3+ clubs

...............2D-natural, nf

...............2H-artificial GF

...............2S-6 spades

..........2D-DN, 5+ diamonds

...............2H-artificial GF

..........2H-DN, 6 hearts

...............2N+ GF

..........2S-DN, 3 spades

.....1N-5+H, denies 4 spades

..........2C-relays

...............2D-4+C

...............2H-single-suited

...............etc-diamonds

..........2D-DN

...............2S-artificial GF

.....2C-5+C/4D, 6+C, 5+C/4H

.....2D-6+D, 5+D/4C

.....2H-5+S/4H (treat 5440s as 5431s)

.....2S-5D/5C

.....2N-GF 4H/5C

.....3C-GF, diamonds

.....3D-GF, 4H/5D, higher

[akhare]

.....1S-4+ spades

..........2C-DN, other

...............P-5 clubs or 3-suited short red

...............2D-5 diamonds

...............2H-artificial GF

...............2S-6 spades

..........2D-DN, 3 spades

...............P-5 diamonds

....................2H-artificial GF

..........2H-DN, 6 hearts

..........2S-DN, 4 spades

 

For this sequence, I think that the original version with 2♣ = 3+♣ DN works best.

 

2♥ as 6+ is too narrow a target and 3 vs. 4 spades in a DN hand are really unlikely to matter much. With a shapely hand and 4+♠, responder is free to jump to the 3-level and 2♠ should show 3/4 with a less than promising hand.

[akhare]

 

1C-1D, 1H showing...

 

(1) Balanced any strength

(2) 4♥ and 5+♦

(3) GF diamonds

(4) GF 3-suiters

(5) 4♥ and 5+♣ too strong for 2♣ rebid

(6) GF 5D/4C

(7) GF 4S/5H

 

.....1H-

..........1S-DN, GF bal, minor family

...............1N-17-21

....................2C-GF bal

....................etc-minor family

...............2C-22+ bal

 

When responder doesn't bid 1S over 1C - 1D - 1H, is the idea that the 1N+ bids would instead show super positive hands?

 

I am guessing that the scheme looks like the following:

 

1♣....1♦...1♥:

 

1♠: DN / Balanced / Super positive with minors

1N: Super Positive, 5+ Hearts

2C: SP, Majors / three suited

2D: SP, S+C

2H: SP, Spades

2S+: Reversed, S+D

[straube]

Yes. That's what I meant.

[akhare]

To me, it seems that your biggest concern is the lack of relays with a big balanced hand opposite a super positive hand.

 

It's possible to address that concern and keep things simple with a single tweak:

 

1C - 1D:

 

.....1H (mostly unbalanced with 4+ hearts, some big balanced hands):

........1S: SP or balanced, asks for hand type

.............1N: Big balanced hand

.............2C: H+C / Three suited

.............2D: H+D

.............2H: H+S reversed

.............2S: Hearts, no shortness

.........1N: DN

 

......1S (Unbalanced with 4+ spades)

......1N (Minimum balanced hands)

 

Note that over 1C - 1D - 1N and 1C - 1D - 1H - 1S - 1N sequences, responder can use 2♣ to (ostensibly) relay opener's hand.

 

As you had suggested before, there's the possibility of using the 2-way transfers to show some hand patterns as well.

 

Granted, bidding 1N with a DN hand isn't ideal, but it's unlikely to cost that much because the 20+ balanced hands are so rare anyway and responder can always bid 2♣+ (DN) if it's undesirable.

[straube]

To me, it seems that your biggest concern is the lack of relays with a big balanced hand opposite a super positive hand.

 

It's possible to address that concern and keep things simple with a single tweak:

 

1C - 1D:

 

.....1H (mostly unbalanced with 4+ hearts, some big balanced hands):

........1S: SP or balanced, asks for hand type

.............1N: Big balanced hand

.............2C: H+C / Three suited

.............2D: H+D

.............2H: H+S reversed

.............2S: Hearts, no shortness

.........1N: DN

 

......1S (Unbalanced with 4+ spades)

......1N (Minimum balanced hands)

 

Note that over 1C - 1D - 1N and 1C - 1D - 1H - 1S - 1N sequences, responder can use 2♣ to (ostensibly) relay opener's hand.

 

As you had suggested before, there's the possibility of using the 2-way transfers to show some hand patterns as well.

 

Granted, bidding 1N with a DN hand isn't ideal, but it's unlikely to cost that much because the 20+ balanced hands are so rare anyway and responder can always bid 2♣+ (DN) if it's undesirable.

 

Pretty sure I follow, but this doesn't work. The point of 1C-1D, 1H as all balanced and some other is to let responder spin off super-positive patterns at +1. If...

 

1C-1D,

.....1H-

..........1S-balanced or super-positive

..........1N-DN

..........2C+ DN

 

...then responder isn't showing his super-positive patterns at all. All of those bids have been assigned to the double negatives. You're asking responder to be relay captain for opener's (mostly) balanced shapes. Topsy turvy, especially when responder has a super-positive shapely hand.

[akhare]

Pretty sure I follow, but this doesn't work. The point of 1C-1D, 1H as all balanced and some other is to let responder spin off super-positive patterns at +1. If...

 

1C-1D,

.....1H-

..........1S-balanced or super-positive

..........1N-DN

..........2C+ DN

 

...then responder isn't showing his super-positive patterns at all. All of those bids have been assigned to the double negatives. You're asking responder to be relay captain for opener's (mostly) balanced shapes. Topsy turvy, especially when responder has a super-positive shapely hand.

 

The real question to ask yourself is whether it's worth having *frequently* relay at +1 opposite the common minimum balanced hands in 1♥ (not to mention adding a significant amount of complexity).

 

If the ability to find slam with shapely hands opposite 17-19 balanced hands is a serious concern, it sounds more like a vote of no confidence in the no-trump structure. With 10+ shapely HCPs (the rough equivalent of 7+ QPs) opposite 20+ balanced, with specific RKCs etc., do you really think there will be trouble finding the right slam regardless of who is asking?

 

On a side note, it will be really interesting to see if a +1 relay structure can find slams that a competent no-trump structure can't.

[straube]

.....1H-

..........1S-DN, GF bal, minor family

...............1N-17-21

....................2C-GF bal

....................etc-minor family

...............2C-22+ bal

....................2D-DN, GF bal

.........................2H-24+ or GF 3-suited

..............................2S-DN

...................................2N-24+ bal

...................................etc-3-suited

.........................2S-GF majors

.........................2N-22-23

....................etc-minor family at +2

...............2D-4H/5+D or 3-suited short spade

...............2H-4+S/5+H (treat 4540s as 4531s)

...............2S-5S/5H

...............2N-GF 4D/5C

...............3C-GF clubs

...............3D-GF 5D/4C, higher

 

 

.....1S-4+ spades

..........1N-GF relay

...............2C-clubs

...............2D-3-suited

...............2H-single-suited

...............etc-diamonds

..........2C-DN, 3+ clubs

...............2D-natural, nf

...............2H-artificial GF

...............2S-6 spades

..........2D-DN, 5+ diamonds

...............2H-artificial GF

..........2H-DN, 6 hearts

...............2N+ GF

..........2S-DN, 3 spades

.....1N-5+H, denies 4 spades

..........2C-relays

...............2D-4+C

...............2H-single-suited

...............etc-diamonds

..........2D-DN

...............2S-artificial GF

.....2C-5+C/4D, 6+C, 5+C/4H

.....2D-6+D, 5+D/4C

.....2H-5+S/4H (treat 5440s as 5431s)

.....2S-5D/5C

.....2N-GF 4H/5C

.....3C-GF, diamonds

.....3D-GF, 4H/5D, higher

 

I'm feeling a little better today about this. Sure it's inelegant. Lots of memory work. I'll list arguments for it...

 

1) Opener can relay responder's hand at +1 when responder has a super-positive hand. These situations...strong balanced opposite strong unbalanced are the must-haves of relays. They are exactly when relays are most advantageous. Imprecision uses....

 

.....1C-1D, 1H-

..........1S-DN other

..........1N-GF ask

..........2C-DN 5C/5D

..........2D-DN-5D/5S

..........2H-DN-4H

..........2S-DN-5S/5C

 

.....and these are just too important of bids to use for DN 5/5s. I mean, even standard symmetric places 5/5s at the point of 2S and now we should definitely not be -3 for a DN that will not be relayed. This means either that these bids are wrong or that something wrong occurred earlier in the bidding. I mean, Imprecision's 1C-1D, 1S-2C shows a DN with 3+ clubs and that's a lot less specific than a particular 5/5. Opener may pass. Opener may continue on. But in terms of information shown, it feels much more right. it encompasses far more hand patterns.

 

Now contrast these sequences to...

 

.....1C-1D, 1H-

..........1S-DN, bal, or minor family super-positives

..........1N-H/C, H, H/D superpositives

..........2C-H/S/m, H/S superpositives

..........etc-S/C, S, S/D superpositives

 

I'd argue that what is wrong is not the continuations after the 1C-1D, 1H but what happened earlier in the meaning of 1H. 1H needs to include the balanced hands and not so much hearts. In fact, the only reason it might include hearts at all is for low relay breaks (after 1C-1D, 1H-1S) to show hands that might play in 2H.

 

Another point is that Imprecision's 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N to show 21-23 balanced is too much of a good thing. Even something like TOSR uses 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N to show something like 20-22 and it is probably more like a good 19 to bad 22. It's nice to be able to stop low, but it costs to do that.

 

2. While opener will occasionally get in responder's way when he has a GF hand with the minors or with 4H/5m, this is mostly true of Imprecision as well...excepting the 4H/5m hands which (I think) rebid 1H in Imprecision....and also excepting the 5m/5m hands which both Imprecision and this suggestion are able to show at the point of 2S. The good news is that these GF hands ought to be rare because the ability to force game to (usually) the 5-level opposite a DN is rare. Now Imprecision handles the GF heart hands via 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C-and then later making a GF while the idea here would be very similar in terms of space...1C-1D, 1N-2D (DN), 2S starting a GF. So low enough. I'm also able to keep low on the GF spade hands via 1C-1D, 1S-2m, 2H as an artificial GF and this feels about right for space because opener has to sort out whether he has just spades or spades and a minor, which is longer, etc. I mean, responder's 2S continuation should probably be forced. Now when opener has a GF with both majors, it goes 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C-2D, 2S which feels about right for space as well. I suppose some simple continuation could sort out all of these GF 2-suiters...reverser/55/unreversed or whatever. I haven't spent the time with it. I know there's room to deliver an approximation.

 

3. Pretty much this suggestion leaves opener able to stop in reasonable contracts (in the majority instances when opener cannot force opposite a DN) similar to Imprecision...

 

.....A. Opener can play 2C with 5+C/4H, 5+C/4D, 6+C I think this is the same.

.....B. Opener can play at 2D or 2H with 4H/5+D or 3-suited short spade

.....C. Opener can play at 2H with 5+H/4m or 6H. This alternative is quite a bit ahead of Imprecision here because 1C-1D, 1N-2D can show a 2-fit while 2H can show a 1-fit

..........which helps opener decide whether to bail into a minor. With Imprecision, 1C-1D, 1H-2C shows 5+ hearts and responder's 2D suggests a spade holding (which is

..........not the value meaning for us) and 2H presumably shows 0-3 hearts (depending on whether responder has the texture to show a 6m)

.....D. Opener can show 5+S/4H and play 2H

.....E. Opener can show 4S/5+H and play 2H

.....F. Opener can show 5S/5H and play 2S. This bypasses 2H of course, but it clarifies which suit is longer for the other instances. I feel like if 2S can show 5m/5m successfully, then 2S can show 5S/5H successfully, too. The

..........price I pay here is returned by 1C-1D, 1S-2m, 2H being artificial GF and by preventing 5+S/4+ hand patterns from occurring at the point of 2H which would necessitate them being relayed at more than +1.

 

 

Adam, your prior comments and outline were very helpful in correcting some of my mistakes. If you have any other ideas, I'm all ears.

[awm]

A couple things about IMprecision that you have wrong:

 

1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♥ shows at least doubleton heart and almost always exactly three. Hands with short hearts will have 3+ spades (and bid 2♦) or will have 5/5 minors (and take a different path) or will have a 6+ minor (again, will do something different).

 

We have recently changed 1♣-1♦-1♥-2♣/2♦ to cover three-suited hand patterns with short hearts. This is more frequent and helps substantially on scramble auctions.

 

-------------------------------

 

For the merits of your actual structure, it seems okay to me (although quite complicated). There are some places where the double negatives will trip you (in particular you have no way to show a three-card or four-card heart raise over 1♣-1♦-1NT without forcing the three-level on a double-negative). You preempt yourself on the 21-23 flat hands (sure you claim this is no big deal, but I find it helps a lot when it comes up; not so much playing 1NT instead of 2NT as being able to show some pattern on a weak hand with shape). You also have no clear way to show hands with game prospects opposite 0-4 without game forcing (for example 21-22 with some shape), which we can usually manage.

 

All of these things are small issues, but I suspect what you gain from having balanced opener relay instead of responder when responder has 7+RP is also a pretty small win. The advantage of "having the balanced hand relay" is real, but it's more significant when you are looking for slam on light values than on these hands where you typically have "near-slam" high cards and safety in 4NT. And of course there is the complexity... I recall in a different thread you were complaining about how ridiculous IMprecision is to learn/remember, and this stuff adds a whole new layer of that!

[straube]

A couple things about IMprecision that you have wrong:

 

1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♥ shows at least doubleton heart and almost always exactly three. Hands with short hearts will have 3+ spades (and bid 2♦) or will have 5/5 minors (and take a different path) or will have a 6+ minor (again, will do something different).

 

We have recently changed 1♣-1♦-1♥-2♣/2♦ to cover three-suited hand patterns with short hearts. This is more frequent and helps substantially on scramble auctions.

 

-------------------------------

 

For the merits of your actual structure, it seems okay to me (although quite complicated). There are some places where the double negatives will trip you (in particular you have no way to show a three-card or four-card heart raise over 1♣-1♦-1NT without forcing the three-level on a double-negative). You preempt yourself on the 21-23 flat hands (sure you claim this is no big deal, but I find it helps a lot when it comes up; not so much playing 1NT instead of 2NT as being able to show some pattern on a weak hand with shape). You also have no clear way to show hands with game prospects opposite 0-4 without game forcing (for example 21-22 with some shape), which we can usually manage.

 

All of these things are small issues, but I suspect what you gain from having balanced opener relay instead of responder when responder has 7+RP is also a pretty small win. The advantage of "having the balanced hand relay" is real, but it's more significant when you are looking for slam on light values than on these hands where you typically have "near-slam" high cards and safety in 4NT. And of course there is the complexity... I recall in a different thread you were complaining about how ridiculous IMprecision is to learn/remember, and this stuff adds a whole new layer of that!

 

So I started to look at hands and the idea came to me that one could now place the 6+ QP hands unbalanced hands into the 1D response. This tightens your SP/light GF range to 2-5 QPs. With your 6+ QP hands you now get to relay them at +1 (which is no worse than you are doing presently I think) and you are back to even with most systems (Moscito/SCREAM) by the time those 6 QP hands are showing QPs. Sure, there are advantages in putting the 6 QP unbalanced hands in with the SP/light GF hands, but the range of 2-6 is fairly wide (which is the main thing) and you stand at least some risk of opener not feeling safe to search for those 6 QPs for slam purposes. I think 2-5 and 6+ is a more balanced division.

 

As far as complication, I'm going to argue that this modification is slightly less complicated because on the downside responder's super-positive relays after 1C-1D follow a pretty simple symmetric structure. On the upside, opener's reverse relays after 1C-1D, 1S and 1C-1D, 1N are easier because he doesn't have to show balanced patterns and he doesn't have to show two of the four 3-suited patterns. He doesn't have to show the other major either. It may come down to what one is used to, but as a newbie looking into your system I did find it hard to grasp.

 

You may not like this still, but inviting you to humor me and develop it with me. I think Atul and I may choose this way and with your help you might see how far it can go.

 

Btw, I've been looking at the GF opposite DNs through random deals and they are just so uncommon. Sure, we have to have a method for them, but I'm not worried. Much more problematic is something common to both your system and SCREAM which is that opener doesn't have a chance to show extra strength before responder announces the DN. This means that promising shapely hands (say 5/5s of 20 point strength) have to decide whether to underbid or overbid. I read your statement "You also have no clear way to show hands with game prospects opposite 0-4 without game forcing (for example 21-22 with some shape), which we can usually manage." and that's an important concern. I think we are in a similar position after 1C-1D, 1S and even 1C-1D, 1N but I think you have a point about when we opener has specifically both majors. Not sure how Imprecision handles these either.

 

I know that's part of your interest in having responder be able to show fit for hearts and I think we would probably have to force responder to show a 4-fit for hearts at the 3-level whenever opener has 5+ hearts. With a 9-cd fit I think that's not too concerning.