matchpoints 2

[pigpenz]

[hv=pc=n&e=s43hakqt643djc432&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1sp2s]133|200[/hv]

best tactical approach to this type of hand

3♠ or 3,4,or 5♥

[kenberg]

I'm going to restrain myself and bid 3♥. At equal vul I do not want to be in 5♥ off three. If partner has some helpful shape he can contribute something here, if not I will just let them play 4♠. Or whatever number of spades they have in mind.

[CSGibson]

3♥, several reasons. There is no point in preempting opponents after they have established a fit and one of the hands is limited, so 4♥ is off the table for me, and I don't want to bypass 3N with 7 solid tricks. Also, I have lots of losers.

[wyman]

3H. At this point, I just want to make sure partner leads a heart.

[quiddity]

I would just bid 4♥. 3NT seems far-fetched; the opponents have opened and responded and we need partner to stop 3 suits? As for "no point in preempting", who knows what's about to happen? Maybe LHO is about to make a slam try splinter in hearts or show a second suit.

[broze]

I would just bid 4♥. 3NT seems far-fetched; the opponents have opened and responded and we need partner to stop 3 suits? As for "no point in preempting", who knows what's about to happen? Maybe LHO is about to make a slam try splinter in hearts or show a second suit.

 

+1

 

Preemption is still valid in this position you know! And as for being able to look for, bid and make 3NT....lol. And yes, I know it might be considered the obvious action so it certainly won't work this time but I'll stand by 4♥.

[Fluffy]

I'd bid 4♥ to encourage partner to save in 5♥ if appropiate.

[sfi]

If you bid 4♥ you have to expect a 4♠ bid by opener. If you're comfortable that your side will know what to do after that, then 4♥ is reasonable.

 

I don't like taking that guess though. IRL, I am more likely to bid 3♥ and 4♥ and hope that they've lost steam by that point. But I don't think the odds strongly favour either choice.

[Codo]

I am in the 3 then 4 ♥ camp too.

[kenberg]

My choice was 3♥. After that, I can see two main ways that I might later be given the opportunity to bid 4♥.

A. Lho makes a maximal double, partner passes, rho bids 3♠.

B. Lho bids 3♠, non-invitational, followed by two passes.

 

Those of you bidding 3♥ and then 4♥ would do so in both cases? I'm not so sure I would do so in either. In case A, if partner redoubles, that's another matter.

 

There is also the possibility that over 3♥ my lho bids 4♣ and my rho bids 4♦, but having missed my opportunity to interfere with this I can't see bidding again now.

[jdeegan]

:P I have to join the 3♥ bidders. 4♥ is traditionally a transfer to 4♠ for LHO. Then what do I do? I'd sooner Pass or bid 5♥ than be an EZ money 4♥ bidder. I might (or might not) bid 4♥ later.

[pigpenz]

my question on this hand is with 7 solid hearts how do we let partner in on the party

it would seem there has to be a way to let partner have a decision on whether to bid 5♥

so what action lets partner know what type of hand we have.

3♠ could be some type of solid 7 card suit, still chance for 3NT small but some chance

3♥ or 4♥ which one gives partner the best chance to come to the party

[CSGibson]

There's a better chance you will know what to do after 3♥ than 4. Partner has a chance to raise you with a fit, the opponents can bid 4S right away, which is more meaningful than competing to 4♠ over 4♥, or they can still stop in 3♠ now that you've taken away their descriptive game tries. If partner doesn't have a fit for hearts, then we shouldn't be saving at these colors; even if we find partner with a hand that covers 2 of our losers, it is possible that it is a phantom. Additionally, since responder is so tightly defined in terms of fit and playing potential, opener will have a much better idea of what to do over 4 hearts.

[pigpenz]

There's a better chance you will know what to do after 3♥ than 4. Partner has a chance to raise you with a fit, the opponents can bid 4S right away, which is more meaningful than competing to 4♠ over 4♥, or they can still stop in 3♠ now that you've taken away their descriptive game tries. If partner doesn't have a fit for hearts, then we shouldn't be saving at these colors; even if we find partner with a hand that covers 2 of our losers, it is possible that it is a phantom. Additionally, since responder is so tightly defined in terms of fit and playing potential, opener will have a much better idea of what to do over 4 hearts.

on this particular hand there was not way as your left hand opp bid 4♠

 

lots of times with weak players you get these hands where they balance in a live auction, say 3♣ or 3♦

in this case 3♥ so how do we differentiate between a partner with a good hand and one who is just making some noise?

[655321]

I'd bid 4♥ to encourage partner to save in 5♥ if appropiate.

 

This seems normal to me too.

[kenberg]

lots of times with weak players you get these hands where they balance in a live auction, say 3♣ or 3♦

in this case 3♥ so how do we differentiate between a partner with a good hand and one who is just making some noise? [/Quote]

 

 

Weak players? Like Marty Bergen? Joking.

 

I think that the answer is that you cannot really tell just what partner has in mind. There isn't enough room for a descriptive auction and it's not entirely clear to me that you want the auction to be highly descriptive. More times than not when you come in with hearts over 1♠-Pass-2♠ the opponents will be playing in spades. If you have an agreement, disclosable, that 3♥ shows a solid suit with no outside cards they will probably be able to declare the hand pretty well.

 

My preference is that 3♥ means that I am not all that frightened of having to play 3♥X, I want a heart lead, and if you, my partner, have some shape and some hearts, you might want to compete further.

 

This hand is a case in point. After the 4♠ bid on your left, your partner needs to decide on whether to bid 5♥. Quite possibly lho is short in hearts, increasing the chances that partner has some. Imo, he needs less stuff to go on to 5 had I bid 4♥ than after my own choice of 3♥. He can still get it wrong in either direction, but I think with this hand my 3♥, rather than 4♥, will up his chances of making the best choice. He should assume 5♥ will be doubled, they are unlikely to bid 5♠.

 

I don't have a hefty quarrel with the 4♥ bidders, could be right, but I settle for 3.

[Codo]

on this particular hand there was not way as your left hand opp bid 4♠

 

lots of times with weak players you get these hands where they balance in a live auction, say 3♣ or 3♦

in this case 3♥ so how do we differentiate between a partner with a good hand and one who is just making some noise?

 

At least to me 3 ♥ (or clubs or diamonds is no noise- it is a non jump, so it is constructive. 4 ♥ is wide ranging.

[cherdano]

I don't want to be rude, but I really think the 3♥ bidders are wrong in so many ways, that it can only be explained by playing too much against weak opponents.

1. Playing 3NT: It's true that this might be the right contract, but partner won't know when to bid it. He doesn't know we have a running 7-card suit, so he doesn't know that he just needs a stop and an ace (and no ♥ honour).
   
2. "They may run out of steam": If opponents pass out 4H after 3H-3S-4H or 3H-3S-P-P-4H, then that's likely to be right for them. And if they bid 4S, that's also more likely to be right than when they have to guess over a direct 4H.
   
3. In fact, just think about how many bids you give opener to help responder decide whether to go to 4S: He can pass, he can bid 3S, and he can make a maximal double. Doesn't that sound like a better position to be in than guessing over 4♠? Anyway, all this is way too complicated: opponents are more likely to guess right if they have more room to exchange information.
   
4. "We won't know what to do over 4S, but after 3H-3S-4H-4S I know to bid 5H": Sorry, but this is the definition of master-minding. I mean, it's true that we have an obvious 5H bid here, partly because we have misdescribed our hand earlier. But think about how unlikely that auction is: LHO has a 3S bid, not a 4S bid (if he has ♥ shortness, he will likely jump to 4S). Partner has a raise of 3H, but not a raise of 4H. And RHO competes to 4S, after he limited himself with 2S. Meanwhile, if we instead jump to 4♥, partner can make a decision, with a good guess about our hand type.
   

Anyway, the fact alone that some (most?) of the 3H bidders won't pass out 3S is evidence enough that 3H is wrong - just bid as far as you want to bid right away. (Bidding 3H then 4H is much more likely to result in the -300 against a partscore or -500 against game that the 3H bidders are afraid of.)

[wyman]

fwiw i am planning on checking out 3S

 

edit: I don't think I'm good enough for 4H since they have an idea of the strength and can do the right thing, but I do want a heart lead, and 3H still eats up descriptive game tries.

[P_Marlowe]

4H.

 

5H will be too expensive, if partner has nothing you are -4, and over 5H their usual sole option is to take

the money.

Assuming sensible agreements on their side, 3H does not take away the inv. raise, and if you dont want to

bid 5H vs. nothing, the information, that they did bid 4S with confidence is worthless.

 

Hence I am going for maximal pressure.

 

Give me an 8 card suit, and I am all for 3H.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[CSGibson]

fwiw i am planning on checking out 3S

 

 

 

Same here.

[CSGibson]

I don't want to be rude, but I really think the 3♥ bidders are wrong in so many ways, that it can only be explained by playing too much against weak opponents.

1. Playing 3NT: It's true that this might be the right contract, but partner won't know when to bid it. He doesn't know we have a running 7-card suit, so he doesn't know that he just needs a stop and an ace (and no ♥ honour).
    
   

 
But they may offer 3N with some sort of double spade stopper-ish looking thing like AQx, KQx, AJx, or KJx, along with a smattering of other values - I think you are underestimating the likelihood of this.
 

"They may run out of steam": If opponents pass out 4H after 3H-3S-4H or 3H-3S-P-P-4H, then that's likely to be right for them. And if they bid 4S, that's also more likely to be right than when they have to guess over a direct 4H.
In fact, just think about how many bids you give opener to help responder decide whether to go to 4S: He can pass, he can bid 3S, and he can make a maximal double. Doesn't that sound like a better position to be in than guessing over 4♠? Anyway, all this is way too complicated: opponents are more likely to guess right if they have more room to exchange information.

 
I think it is true that opponents are likely to decide right after exchanging information. Unfortunately, they've already exchanged information. On the other hand, my partner and I have not, and I really need more information after they bid 4S. If they bid 4S after I bid 4H, I don't know if they are saving, taking a 2-way shot, or bidding to make, and neither does partner. If they bid it after 3H, it is much more likely to be on power/to make, and partner knows that too, and can make a decision based on that inference.
 

"We won't know what to do over 4S, but after 3H-3S-4H-4S I know to bid 5H": Sorry, but this is the definition of master-minding. I mean, it's true that we have an obvious 5H bid here, partly because we have misdescribed our hand earlier. But think about how unlikely that auction is: LHO has a 3S bid, not a 4S bid (if he has ♥ shortness, he will likely jump to 4S). Partner has a raise of 3H, but not a raise of 4H. And RHO competes to 4S, after he limited himself with 2S. Meanwhile, if we instead jump to 4♥, partner can make a decision, with a good guess about our hand type.

 

 

The argument that partner has a better idea of our hand after 4♥ rather than 3♥ is disingenuous at best. Game bids tend to be wildly variant in nature, bid both with single-suited powerhouses as well as preempts. I don't think partner will "know" our hand type any better or worse after 4♥ than after 3♥.

 

Anyway, the fact alone that some (most?) of the 3H bidders won't pass out 3S is evidence enough that 3H is wrong - just bid as far as you want to bid right away. (Bidding 3H then 4H is much more likely to result in the -300 against a partscore or -500 against game that the 3H bidders are afraid of.)

 

Yes, bidding 3♥ then competing to 4 is a horrible strategy on this hand for the reason you mentioned and others. But just because some of the people who bid 3♥ will screw up the auction later does not mean that 3♥ is the wrong bid in a vacuum; it just means that some of the people bidding it are the wrong players to bid it.

[quiddity]

But they may offer 3N with some sort of double spade stopper-ish looking thing like AQx, KQx, AJx, or KJx, along with a smattering of other values - I think you are underestimating the likelihood of this.

 

This would just be hanging you when you have a typical non-vulnerable prebalance. He has no heart help for you and he cannot possibly think that you are making 3NT on his smattering of values.

[lalldonn]

I think cherdano put it really well. Also if I bid 4♥ and the next player bids 4♠ I don't feel bad at all. I might have forced him to stretch or to not make his slam try, and if partner saves or doubles I will feel good about it.

[pigpenz]

This would just be hanging you when you have a typical non-vulnerable prebalance. He has no heart help for you and he cannot possibly think that you are making 3NT on his smattering of values.

actually on this particular hand 3NT is down one

with 4NT being a good save against 4♠

 

question is how will partner interpet 3♠ if he doesnt have spade stopper and you bid 4♥ over his minor suit bid