Where is partner taking us?

[jillybean]

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2♦ gf 5+, 2H 5+, what now?

[Codo]

4 ♥, luckily I am not 4504 in which case I would feal really unlucky...

[kenberg]

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2♦ gf 5+, 2H 5+, what now?

 

I would have bid 2♠ over 2♦. I think that makes it easier but we probably still get to the same crisis. After 2♠, partner rebids diamonds, I rebid hearts, partner bids 4♣.

 

I bid 5♣. I have hearts spades and clubs, listed in decreasing order of length. I have bid these suits, in that same order. Sounds to me as if I have shown 4=6=0=3 pattern. Now it is partner's problem.

 

 

However, I prefer that the 2♠ bid (the one I would have made) show about a king beyond what I needed to open the hand. So, with that agreement and with that bid, I will feel a little better about having done the hand justice. After 1♥-2♦-2♥-3♦, I don't think 3♠ really shows four spades. It's clear that partner dose not have four spades after his 3♦ bid, so I think 3♠ sounds more like spade values to see if pard would like to try 3NT.

 

Bottom line there is that i think my proposed sequence is clearer, but I would still have to choose a call. I choose 5♣.

 

As to what he is telling me, I think he is telling me that he wants to play in a minor. If he next bids 5♦ I am going to pass.

[the_clown]

I cant understand why you didnt bid 2♠ on your second turn. But since your partner didnt bid 2♠ himself, he doesnt have 4 of them.

If he had solid diamonds, he would have either bid 4♦ over 2♥ or 4♦ over 3♠.

He doesnt want to play NT else he would have bid 3/4/6NT.

He never supported hears, so he cant have slam try in hearts since we showed only 5 of them.

 

So the only thing that is left is choice of games. And I would choose 4♥

[jillybean]

2♠ is an option but in our system I believe it is better to begin to show the 6th ♥, if partner has 4♠ he will bid them over 2♥.

[billw55]

2♠ is an option but in our system I believe it is better to begin to show the 6th ♥, if partner has 4♠ he will bid them over 2♥.

Sounds reasonable. But if that is so, what is the point of opener bidding 3♠?

 

I would probably just bid 3NT, hoping my extra values make up for the misfit. If partner bids 4♣ over that, I would raise to 5. I'm not getting slam happy with a void in partner's twice bid suit.

[lalldonn]

4♣ should NOT be natural. It's a slam try for one of your suits. Of course who knows if your partner is aware of this. If you think not then 4♥ as a safety play is reasonable.

 

I would a million times rather rebid 2♠ than 2♥ btw.

[kenberg]

4♣ should NOT be natural. It's a slam try for one of your suits. Of course who knows if your partner is aware of this. If you think not then 4♥ as a safety play is reasonable.

 

I would a million times rather rebid 2♠ than 2♥ btw.

 

A slam try in one of my suits? When is he planning on telling me which suit? It seems hard to believe he has suddenly discovered a bunch of spades in his hand so I suppose if we are going to play this in slam in my suit it will be in hearts. I don't mind, I have a decent hand, but I will await the dummy with some anxiety.

 

 

Given that I recognize this as a slam try in one of my suits, and I can always learn to do so, what then do I do?

[lalldonn]

Given that she seems to be playing 3♠ natural it seems she thinks partner hasn't denied spades. I would of course think partner has denied spades and this is specifically a slam try in hearts (the 3♠ bid promising a sixth heart since it was natural). So bid whatever you think you are worth. I would say it's worth 4♦ as a last train try for slam, but as mentioned I wouldn't risk such a thing if I thought partner might think 4♣ is natural.

 

Rule you should use: No new suits on the 4 level are natural in 2/1 auctions. How else can partner make a slam try in hearts anyway?

[ggwhiz]

By agreement a 2♠ rebid would show a full blown reverse in my partnership to put us on the slam track opposite a min 2♦ bid that denied 4 spades 95% of the time in our style. No way I think that's perfect but it works for us.

 

Especially at mp's I'm bidding 4♥ and expect to make it even if I have 3 trump losers. Pard is not barred from carrying on.

[kenberg]

Rule you should use: No new suits on the 4 level are natural in 2/1 auctions. How else can partner make a slam try in hearts anyway?

 

I like this rule a lot. Usually, since I rarely have detailed agreements, I like to just puzzle it out. But I can see the point of simply setting this up as a General Rule. In particular, with my preferred beginning of 1♥-2♦-2♠-3♦-3♥, this 3♥ bid is the first that responded has heard of my sixth heart.So he may well now be more in tune with that suit. In the OP auction and from subsequent remarks, apparently 1♥-2♦-2♥ promised six. It then is harder to see, after 3♦-3♠, why responder now has discovered he wants to explore for a heart slam but did not bid 3♥ over 2♥. And I still find it unlikely we are to play in spades. Nonetheless, whatever 4♣ might be looking for, I think that agreeing that, by the Rule, it is not natural is apt to get us home.

 

 

OK Suppose I agree that it is not natural in the OP auction. I have rebid hearts, showing six per agreement but not showing any extras. I can't see that my 3♠ showed extras. I have extras. I guess I bid 4♠. As you mention, a Last Train 4♦ seems very risky if there is any possibility of not being on the same page.

 

This all brings to mind Simon's Unlucky Expert. No doubt 4♣ is a fine bid, providing that partner has the same understanding of it as the bidder has.

[jdeegan]

:P You have largely undisclosed extra HCP since you did forget to bid 2♠. Pard is sniffing for slam (probably). He/she is the captain of this auction, like it or not. Imho, bid 4♠ and await developments.

[jillybean]

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The 2♥ rebid promises 5+ not 6.

 

With a 4523 hand I would happily bid 2♠ showing 4+♠5+♥ and a King more than minimum. Given that partner has shown length in

my void, (2♦ promises 5+) I decided it was better not to encourage and rebid 2♥.

 

With 2 card support partner will raise hearts, with 4 card ♠ he will bid 2♠. After 3♦ I know partner does not have 4 spades but if I bid 3 hearts

I think I am putting him in an difficult position if he does not have a spade stopper for NT.

 

4♣ is "tell me more", I'm not sure where we are going, partner knows I have 6♥ so bidding them again seemed futile.

[the hog]

4C should be a slam try in H. I agree with your 2H rebid by the way, though this hand is at the top level for that bid. The void in partner's suit suggests that the hand should be downgraded.

[jillybean]

4C should be a slam try in H.

and how do you respond Ron?

[the hog]

and how do you respond Ron?

 

I would bid 4S over 4C.

Now all that is assuming that I am playing with my regular partner. As has been pointed out above some may not even realise that 4C should agree Hearts.

[MrAce]

2♠ is an option but in our system I believe it is better to begin to show the 6th ♥, if partner has 4♠ he will bid them over 2♥.

 

If 2♠ by opener doesn't require extras in your system and was an option as you said, 2♠ by responder may not be natural all the time. Consider this.

 

AKx xx AQTxx xxx

 

You may of course bid 2 NT with this, which is forcing, but if final contract will be 3 NT (since 2♥ didn't promise 6 of them) responder may regret grabbing NT from wrong side. I would personally bid 2♠ with this hand over 2♥, but i know my pd can not have 4 card spades when he bid 2♥ to show 6 of them, eventhough in your explenation it says it doesn;t promise 6 hearts, so i don't understand why you didn't start with 2♠ when your system allows you to bid it without extras.

[Fluffy]

4♣ is a strong bid with no clear direction, 2263 ir 2172 could bid this way.

Since I haven't shown my good 6h suit yet I will do it now, 4♥ looks too weak with my good hand, so 5♥ or 6♥ should be bid now. 6♥ is too commital IMO, we could have everything except ♥AQ♦J wich would be really unlucky, but its possible.

[mr1303]

Partner definitely doesn't have 3 card heart support, so I'm not sure how great his slam try can be (agreeing hearts). I think 4C is a choice of games bid, given that the Ox might suspect that I lack a club stopper given my 3S bid.

[P_Marlowe]

4H.

 

3D basically did set trump, 3NT still being a possible end contract,

3S was only value showing, 4C was a cue, so is 4H.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

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The 2♥ rebid promises 5+ not 6.

<snip>

..., partner knows I have 6♥ so bidding them again seemed futile.

 

???

 

Maybe this is an conlusion of the 3S bid, but ...

[kenberg]

Sometimes people ask me about the merits of 2/1. If they are asking me for advice they are not very advanced, but I usually make the point that it is a good system if you discuss the features well enough so that you get the benefits, else you should not bother because there is a price. This discussion seems to bear this out.

 

I would bid 2♠ over 2♦ but others, the hog for example, would not. Jb had said that she thought it better to show the sixth heart, leading me to believe that after the 2♥ bid we could assume responder knew she had six hearts. Many, I think including Marty Bergen for example, would agree that 2♥ shows six. But then Jb says no, it shows 5+. I am not trying to pick at Jb or anyone here. Mr.Ace says that after 1♥-2♦-2♥, a bid of 2♠ might not be on four cards. Well, with me it is. But that's me. I gather some think that after 1♥-2♦, an opener holding 4-5 in the majors can bid 2♠ w/o showing extras. I certainly know people who think that way, and really if rebidding 2♥ shows six then I imagine the 2♠ cannot show extras. I play it as about a King extra, rebidding my five card suit if I lack the strength for 2♠. And so on.

 

 

And it matters. If 2♥ really shows six, then I should think that a responder who wants to make a slam try in hearts would bid 3♥. As the auction went, after responder bids 3♦, I don't think that 3♠ now shows four spades. This is the point where I would bid 3♠ with spade values expecting partner to bid 3NT if he can handle the clubs. And if 2♥ did not show six, it is not so clear to me that my 3♠ shows a sixth heart either, although it surely would if 3♠ shows four spades and i could have bid 2♠ earlier w/o showing extras.

 

I play pickup, and even when I play with a regular partner I have left many things undiscussed. The meaning of the 4♣ bid is a case in point. So I am fully aware of my own glass house here.

 

My point is this: If partner opens the bidding and I have an opening hand, we are going to be playing in game whether our system is Goren or SAYC or 2/1 or what have you. The selling point for 2/1 is that it handles complexity, especially if a hard to bid slam is a possibility. But that only works if there are some firm agreements.

 

I apologize for the pedantry, I do acknowledge I come up short here as much as anyone.

[Fluffy]

3D basically did set trump, 3NT still being a possible end contract,

3S was only value showing, 4C was a cue, so is 4H.

 

3D sets trumps? that is 4♦ Uwe, 2/1 is too hard if you cannot rebid 3♦ with KJ10xxxx or AKJxxx

[TWO4BRIDGE]

2♠ is an option but in our system I believe it is better to begin to show the 6th ♥, if partner has 4♠ he will bid them over 2♥.

I would bid 2S with "extras" and 2H with a minimum open ( and 2H should promise 6 cards if not playing a special system .... 2NT would show 5 cards ♥... And I consider your hand as extras ... eventho the ♦-void is a liability:

South

1H - 2D! ( 2/1 GF )

2S - 3D

3H - ?? ( Since Responder does not have 4 cds ♠, 3S! could "ask" shortness )

.... - 3S!

3NT! ( ♦-shortness; whereas 4C! = ♣-shortness )

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I am curious about Responder's 4C bid .

[P_Marlowe]

3D sets trumps? that is 4♦ Uwe, 2/1 is too hard if you cannot rebid 3♦ with KJ10xxxx or AKJxxx

With your given 7 carder, I set trumps, similar with your 6 carder.

 

I dont like to reach the 4 level, without having agreed to play a suit, I can still suggest to play a slam

in a different suit, if I think this makes sense later on, but when I enter the 4 level I want to have a suit.

 

But ok, lets modify the statement - "sets trump for the time being".

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: And 3S is not introducing a new suit anyway - responder could have bid a 4 carder over 2H, he did not, hence,

he does not have a 4 carder, and because of this, why should I introduce a 4 carder?

And 2/1 is complicate / unplayable, the question is only, why do I move more and more in the direction of a 2/1

system ..., Acol did work and was such a beautiful and simple system to play.