Law 70

[pigpenz]

keep running into this debate with some local TD's

they all feel that declarer is still allowed to make his tricks

since he cant do anything stupid....I feel the LAW states...that it

is not up to TD to determine if delcarer has forgotten about trump being

outstanding since he made no statement on his claim and now that TD is called

he is being made aware of it.

 

only way I could see not giving non offending side a trick is in situation

where declarer say after trick ten played 2 tricks and defender had to follow to those

two tricks allowing declarer on trick 13 to play his trump pulling last trump.

 

thanks

[Lord Molyb]

definitely

[Trinidad]

There are other situations.

 

Declarer draws trumps, sees that they break and claims. There may even be two trumps out: Declarer starts with AKQ of trump in a 9 card trump fit. He plays the trump ace, everyone follows and declarer claims. The defense is not going to get a trump trick, let alone two. Because it would be irrational for declarer to stop drawing trumps. And what is irrational depends on how the play went.

 

Rik

[blackshoe]

Your poll is missing the correct answer: "maybe". :P

[pigpenz]

Your poll is missing the correct answer: "maybe". :P

I thought about it but I thought I was sort of implying declarer had played other tricks with

out pulling the outstanding trump....so it was not up to the TD to determine if declarer had

forgotten about the trump.

[blackshoe]

Your OP used the phrase "[declarer] can't do anything stupid". And yet the law says he can: "'normal' includes play that would be careless or inferior for the class of player involved".

 

I think the TD should investigate, but of course declarer can't change his original line of play statement if he made one, or insert one if he didn't, so if he didn't mention the outstanding trump, he's likely to lose a trick to it.

[mycroft]

The law has three cases:

- there is no statement about the trump (well, obviously), and

- there is doubt that declarer could have forgotten about it, and

- it can be lost to a normal* play.

 

Each of those cases show the exception.

 

1) I've seen people wave at the trump. I've seen claim discussions where declarer faced and waved at the trump on the board, or "card, card, card, show the rest", and the opponents were either not looking or wilfully ignorant, and challenged.

 

2) It's clear that "pulling trump" is implied in the claim - the one I had this weekend involved ruffing trick 4 to leave:[hv=pc=n&s=sakq54hqj87dc&n=sjt86hak954dc]133|200[/hv] and claiming making 4♠. Also, pulling enough rounds to prove they break and claiming with all high tricks (so no need to delay pulling trumps).

 

3) Declarer's either claimed line of play or obvious line of play will catch the outstanding trump in a showup. Case law says that "forgotten is one thing. not noticing it when played is another." Something like:[hv=pc=n&s=shkqjtdaca&w=s9hd53ckj2&n=sqthdt987c&e=shdc]399|300|Contract is 4♠ again, lead in South, East irrelevant. Assume the diamonds also run :-)[/hv]

[iviehoff]

keep running into this debate with some local TD's they all feel that declarer is still allowed to make his tricks since he cant do anything stupid

It depends what you mean by "stupid". Declarer is given the benefit of the doubt to the limited degree that only "normal" plays are taken into account. But "normal" plays are explicitly defined to include "careless" and "inferior" plays. If you are using the word "stupid" to mean "worse than careless or inferior", then the local TDs are right. Otherwise they are wrong, whether there is a trump outstanding or not, because defenders must be given any tricks they could win in a "normal" play, including careless or inferior.

 

The law does have some explicit wording on trumps outstanding, but they are essentially irrelevant, because whether there is a trump outstanding or not, the law provides that the non-offenders win any tricks they could win by any "normal" play.

[pigpenz]

so more or less it then goes to the TD to look at the line of play up to that point and then

determine if there is a line of play where Declarer can make rest of tricks(show up at trick 13)

or opp not being able to ruff in and declarer having to play the trump at trick 13.

 

the case as it was presented to me was the claim was made after trick 10 and there was an oustanding trump

delcarer had abandoned pulling trumps several tricks earlier.

 

If I was TD i would do above

some TD's(local) believe non offending side should be given a trick regardless(unless above applies)

some TD's say declarer cant do anything stupid(whatever that maybe...as forgetting to pull outstanding trump falls into this)

[mycroft]

I would agree with every one of those TDs, potentially.

 

I would investigate to see if "could potentially have forgotten" applies (likely, if a few more tricks had gone by, declarer could). If that's true, then it's not "stupid" to not pull trump (what trump?), but it might be "stupid" to run a line of play that doesn't involve a round of trump being played early (for transportation issues, for instance). If it's false, then it *is* stupid ("given this information, I am 100% certain that declarer remembered about the trump, despite not saying anything and letting a few tricks go by; the implication is that he's pulling trump". Granted I've never been convinced, but I could yet be!)

[bluejak]

My vote: maybe

[nige1]

"Claim, no line of play, outstanding trump"

Keep running into this debate with some local TD's they all feel that declarer is still allowed to make his tricks since he cant do anything stupid....

I feel the LAW states...that it is not up to TD to determine if delcarer has forgotten about trump being outstanding since he made no statement on his claim and now that TD is called he is being made aware of it.

Only way I could see not giving non offending side a trick is in situation where declarer say after trick ten played 2 tricks and defender had to follow to those two tricks allowing declarer on trick 13 to play his trump pulling last trump.

There are other situations where the outstanding trump will always be picked up, even if not "drawn". Otherwise, IMO, pigpenz is right. The law seems unusually clear. (although condition (3) seems slightly ambiguous). In most circumstances, if a defender might get a decisive ruff with an outstanding trump in normal play, then declarer, who makes no claim statement, should be deemed not to draw it. Pigpenz is also right that some directors somehow seem to manage to interpret the law more generously

There Is an Outstanding Trump.

When a trump remains in one of the opponents' hands, the Director shall award a trick or tricks to the opponents if

1. claimer made no statement about that trump, and
2. it is at all likely that claimer at the time of his claim was unaware that a trump remained in an opponent's hand, and
3. a trick could be lost to that trump by any normal play.

Again, does it make a difference how well the director knows the claimer? For example, suppose the director knows that the claimer is economical with the truth -- or is a novice -- or is world-class? IMO all that should be irrelevant too but, unfortunately, I don't think it is :(

[blackshoe]

Again, does it make a difference how well the director knows the claimer? For example, suppose the director knows that the claimer is economical with the truth -- or is a novice -- or is world-class? IMO all that should be irrelevant too but, unfortunately, I don't think it is :(

Since the laws define "normal" in terms of "the class of player involved" whether he is a novice or world-class (or somewhere in between) is certainly relevant.