Lord Molyb Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 [hv=pc=n&s=sj32hkq874dacat63&n=saq54hjt52dkq84ck&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=p1hp2n(jacoby)p3d(shortness)p3hp4hppp]266|200[/hv]At IMPs. Should north offered a 4♠ bid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 Should north offered a 4♠ bid?No... I'm surprised North didn't sign-off immediately after finding out about "wasted" ♦ values . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSClyde Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 South had no reason to rush a signoff. He has a good hand and should cue over 3♥. It's still hard: showing the stiff ace seems to have set you back. What was 3♥? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Molyb Posted January 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 3♥ showed better than minimum gf response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 south is crazy and gets all the blame for the 4♥ bid, north's 3♥ bid is agressive already, asking him to do anything else is ludicrous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 south is crazy and gets all the blame for the 4♥ bid, north's 3♥ bid is agressive already, asking him to do anything else is ludicrousEven if S bids 4♣ over 3♥, how do you fancy distinguishing S's hand from xxx, AKQxx, x, AJxx where slam is not great ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 that slam looks great to me, almost 50% on spade lead (most likelly, but not totally obvious) and good on others. anyway, I jus said that ATB is pretty clear, north has none, so all lies in south. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 that slam looks great to me, almost 50% on spade lead (most likelly, but not totally obvious) and good on others. anyway, I jus said that ATB is pretty clear, north has none, so all lies in south.I think a little with South, but I'm not clear that NS will ever bid this slam. Say you don't play any gadgets like srs/friv 3N or LTTC. S bids 4♣ over 3♠, N doesn't cue diamonds with KQ opposite a presumed singleton, does he really go beyond 4♥ having already semi-overbid 3♥ ? We would get there because we can pinpoint the stiff A♦ as 3N for us is not srs/friv but replaces the most expensive cue, so in this auction would show a stiff A as we bid 4♦ over 2N with a void. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 ....as we bid 4♦ over 2N with a void.These days most would interpret that as a 2nd 5 card suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbenvic Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 These days most would interpret that as a 2nd 5 card suit. Should you use Jacoby with a stiff club as North? I would splinter, so auction might go1h 3c3d* 3s* (*cues) 4c* 5h** 6h **After hearing partner has both minor aces you only need solid trumps for 6 (AKQ and grand is possible) so 5h asks about trump quality, pass with 1 of top 3, bid 6 with 2 and with all 3 show another feature. So I blame north for not splintering (unless they don't play splinters) say 50% And then I blame south for 50% for just bidding game over 3h with a suitable hand for going further! A six loser hand is worth a kick after partner GF's and shows a mild interest in more than game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 These days most would interpret that as a 2nd 5 card suit.Wasn't sure as I don't actually show shortage first up, I would be bidding 3♣ not 3♦, was just adapting from the problem as given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 This is a very rare deal... with both hands containing a stiff high honor ( in different suits ) AND each partner holding the OTHER high honor . If either partner shows shortness, I would think the prudent thing for the other would be to sign-off in game.Even seeing both hands, it seems awfully lucky to make 12 tricks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbenvic Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 This is a very rare deal... with both hands containing a stiff high honor ( in different suits ) AND each partner holding the OTHER high honor . If either partner shows shortness, I would think the prudent thing for the other would be to sign-off in game.Even seeing both hands, it seems awfully lucky to make 12 tricks. I disagree with that. 29 HCP and fitting shapes ie 1st round control of the 2 short suits, it matters not which Kings they have. Imagine swapping the minor suit Kings out and putting in the Ks and QJ clubs (to balance the points) you now have 4s 4 trumps (losing the Ace) 2 minor Aces for 10 and only need 2 club ruffs for 12 tricks. The whole point of showing singletons is to find these 'lucky' slams, finding no losers in these short suits Especially when 1 hand knopws they have 9+ trumps is a green light for me, not a red one. I agree that if I find I have KQ opposite a singleton I'm sad (wasted values) but not when I find out that he has stiff Ace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Wasn't sure as I don't actually show shortage first up, I would be bidding 3♣ not 3♦, was just adapting from the problem as given.Actually, I've been working on that type of system -- showing a 4 ( or 5 ) card 2nd suit FIRST ..... inspired by ahydra's post this last December : http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/57057-last-nights-tournament/page__st__20 After showing that second suit ( which is headed by at least an A or K AND guaranteeing shortness elsewhere, then a relay would ask for the shortness suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 I still hate splintering aces... so all blame to south. And 4 ♥ was the second worst bid.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Hi, The problem is the 3D bid, it may have been the best av. bid,in which case the blame goes to system. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) [hv=pc=n&s=sj32hkq874dacat63&n=saq54hjt52dkq84ck&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=p1hp2n(jacoby)p3d(shortness)p3hp4hppp]266|200[/hv]Followup to my post # 14:South1H - 2NT!3C! = 4 or 5 card ♣ suit w/ A or K AND shortness in ♦ or ♠...... - 3D! ( next step asks )??3H! = ♠ shortness3S! = ♦ shortness, bad hand3NT! = ♦ shortness, ♠-Ctrl, NO 2nd ♣ card ( A, K or Q )4C! = ♦ shortness, NO ♠-Ctrl, but 2nd ♣ card4D! = ♦ shortness and BOTH ♠-Ctrl AND 2nd ♣ cardAfter:3S! - 4H ( Responder might surmise that opener has the stiff ♦A for his opening bid... but even so, there seems to be too many losers.... and especially so if missing the ♦Ace ) . Edited January 17, 2013 by TWO4BRIDGE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Who cares about 3♦, that's not what caused this. North bid well and 4♥ was LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSClyde Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Why are people saying that this isn't a good slam? It's certainly not cold as there is some handling, but I'd definitely want to be there, and no it doesn't depend on a spade finesse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 In my partnership we hate 3♦ and would bid 3nt to show slight/control rich extras and get to slam pretty easy. That said, on the given auction the 4♥ bid is a bad joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Why are people saying that this isn't a good slam? It's certainly not cold as there is some handling, but I'd definitely want to be there, and no it doesn't depend on a spade finesse.Try actually reading the posts, the quote was: Even if S bids 4♣ over 3♥, how do you fancy distinguishing S's hand from xxx, AKQxx, x, AJxx where slam is not great ? And on that hand on a spade lead, you do stand and fall with the spade finesse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSClyde Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 [ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Molyb Posted January 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 valuable contribution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbenvic Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 valuable contribution I don't disagree with his last post :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Don, I think you can improve information exchange by combining the first 2 options in the follow-ups. That is 1♥ - 2NT; 3♣ - 3♦==3♥ = spade shortage3♠ = diamond shortage, min... - 3NT = asks for spade control... - 4♣ = asks for second club honour... - 4♦ = asks if diamond loser3NT = diamond shortage, max, no spade control... - 4♣ = asks for second club honour... - 4♦ = asks if diamond loser4♣ = diamond shortage, max, spade control, no second club honour... - 4♦ = asks if diamond loser4♦ = diamond shortage, max, spade control, second club honour, diamond loser4♥ = diamond shortage, max, spade control, second club honour, no diamond loser Note that the same scheme also helps with the problem set forth by Cyberyeti. 1♥ - 2NT; 3♦ - 3♥==3♠ = min3NT = max, no spade control4♣ = max, spade control, no club control4♦ = max, spade control, club control, diamond loser4♥ = max, spade control, club control, no diamond loser Unfortunately not perfectly though, since no loser might be a singleton ace or a void. As usual, that is probably more an advertisement for not splintering with a singleton ace than for changing methods to distinguish it when you do. FWiiW, I think this is a tough hand without some methods, even with for that matter. It is difficult for North to know if half of their hand is working. South might have KJx/KQxxxx/x/QJx for 3♦ and a 4♣ cue might be based on Jxx/KQxxxxx/x/AQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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