natural or cue

[dwar0123]

2/1

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1c2np3cp]133|100[/hv]

1 club = typical unalerted bid of at least a 3 card suit.

2nt = unusual for hearts and diamonds.

 

Without discussion, would you take the 3clubs as a cue bid or natural?

[CSGibson]

Its a cue.

[RSClyde]

A cue. Some interest in one of the red suits. I could conceive of having the hand where I wanted it to be natural. But wouldn't suspect that the bid mean that.

[mgoetze]

Uhm... 3♣ is a cue bid whether it's natural or not. So the question doesn't really make sense.

 

I would guess that 3♣ here is an invite to 4♥.

[the hog]

Not natural. This is a gt in Hs

[Fluffy]

I would guess 3♣ is any strong hand with inv+ values

[Codo]

If unusal is wide ranging, as per bbf standard, you surely need it as a cue.

If you play 2 NT as weak/strong only, I do not see much benefits in using it as a cue, but even less in using it as natural.

[fromageGB]

I don't take it as control showing, or showing length in clubs. I would like it to be game suggestion in hearts opposite a weak UNT, but I have known it used as "equal length in your suits". Possibly doubletons, where 3♦ may be a make and 3♥ goes off when partner is x56x.

[rmnka447]

I would take 3 ♣ as a strength showing cue. That's because there needs to be some way that advancer can tell that he has a very good fitting hand opposite the Unusual NTers hand.

 

The Unusual NT hand (and similarly Michaels cue hands) can be either weakish or extra strong distributional hands. So if advancer has a good hand opposite the extra strong hand, a slam is often quite possible. Advancer simply putting the hand into game does no good because the Unusual NT hand can't tell whether advancer is doing so out of strength or is just preempting.

[Zelandakh]

If you play 2 NT as weak/strong only, I do not see much benefits in using it as a cue, but even less in using it as natural.

Even playing split-range, weak is usually defined with a wide range. A 3♣ advance is potentially useful for splitting this up. Reasonable follow-ups might be:

 

3♦ = min

3♥ = max weak, 5 hearts

3♠ = max weak, 6+ hearts

3NT = max weak, 5 hearts, 6+ diamonds

higher bids = strong range

 

or

 

3♦ = min

3♥ = max weak, 5 hearts, no club values/length

3♠ = max weak, 6+ hearts

3NT = max weak, 5 hearts, club values/length

higher bids = strong range

 

Anyone have better follow-ups agreed?

[PhilKing]

Anyone have better follow-ups agreed?

 

In my sytem file:

 

Lowest nat bid = min. All other bids = descriptive and GF.

 

It's not perfect for quantitive game bidding, but it's best for slam/strain exploration and simplicity.

[Trinidad]

It's artificial.

 

Look, you decided to play that 2NT shows the reds. Assuming that partner's 2♣ (instead of 2NT) would have been an artificial cue (e.g. showing the majors), this means that you and your partner decided to treat the 1♣ opener as a natural bid. Why would this decision not be valid in the next round of the bidding? And if you think it shouldn't be valid any more, how is partner supposed to know that the mutual decision is overturned?

 

Rik

[fromageGB]

Yes, we agree that 2NT shows reds, in a weak hand or a strong hand, and that 1♣ is treated as natural. So of course 3♣ by advancer MUST be artificial. Partner has announced a definite 2-suiter, so why would you want to play in clubs with no fit and opponent sitting over you? If you have good clubs, you could try 3NT, but not 3♣.

 

So given that 3♣ is artificial, what does it mean? When you have a meaning, only then can you decide on what the follow-ups are.

 

(1) If you use 3♣ to split up the weak range, you must be strong enough to want to go game, so Zel's seems fine if you can remember that level of detail.

 

(2) If you use 3♣ to mean "equal length in your suits (advancer weak or strong)" then the obvious follow-ups are 3red = weak range, 4red = strong range, bidding the longer/better suit, or as in this case we have a major and a minor, if overcaller is equal length he bids hearts for the better score.

 

(3) if you use 3♣ as game invitation in hearts, then this would be a game invitation for the weak range, so overcaller bids 4♥ or 3♥ depending on whether he thinks he is good or bad in the weak range. A strong range overcaller will ask for aces or cue bid.

 

(4) If you use 3♣ an a general purpose invitational bid with advancer making no statement as to his holdings, then a follow-up without the refinements of Zel's would be that a poor weak range bids 3red (diamonds only if longer), a good weak range bids 4red (diamonds only if longer), and a strong range can temporise with 4♣ for advancer to nominate the suit.

 

So the follow-ups must necessarily be dependent on what the 3♣ bid means.

 

If you actually have a good hand with a control in clubs (the other possible interpretation on what 3♣ means), then the initial 3♣ should be treated as one of the above (your choice) and then when overcaller has bid a suit you can show the club control. So it does not make sense to treat the initial 3♣ as a control cue.

[PhilKing]

(4) If you use 3♣ an a general purpose invitational bid with advancer making no statement as to his holdings, then a follow-up without the refinements of Zel's would be that a poor weak range bids 3red (diamonds only if longer), a good weak range bids 4red (diamonds only if longer), and a strong range can temporise with 4♣ for advancer to nominate the suit.

 

That gets you to 4♦ for no reason whatsoever when advancer is inv in diamonds and overcaller is minimum 55.

 

It gets worse - if overcaller bids 3♥ on a 55 minimum, advancer now has no forcing way to agree diamonds. It's very simple to just play 3♦ as all minimums and then advancer can clarify his reason for bidding 3♣. There is no need for a page of agreements - they just confuse the issue.

 

3♣ is an undefined UCB. If overcaller is weak he bids 3♦. The end.

[fromageGB]

Yes, better, and even simpler <_<

I don't play this meaning for 3♣, but my point was that the follow-ups depend on the meaning of 3♣.

[rmnka447]

3 ♣ is a cue and shows a good hand opposite your red 2 suiter. With the right strong 2 suiter, the NT bidder may be able to start slam investigation or make a slam try once the trump suit is determined.

 

Without this meaning, you'd have no way for advancer to show a good hand opposite your Unusual NT. So after 1 ♣- 2 NT- P- 4 ♥, the NT bidder would have no way of knowing whether partner was raising on ♠ xxxxx ♥ Qxxxx ♦ Kx ♣ x or ♠ Axx ♥ Qxxx ♦ Kx ♣ Axxx.