Common, lazy pass procedure

[billw55]

I might use the stop card if a sufficient number of partners/opponents/directors/whoever prompted me to do so. As it is, the actual number is exactly zero in 20+ years (on and off) of bridge. If I ever meet you guys at the table, you can be the first!

[Bbradley62]

I am trying to imagine a scenerio where a player sees the redouble, picks up her bidding cards to end the auction, rethinks things as picking up the cards, and then decides out of the blue to bid instead, and where it is not obvious whether she intended picking up her cards as a pass, or whether it was done pro-forma because she believed that the previous pass had ended the auction. I just don't see it happening.

 

You should be able to easily determine whether she is telling the truth, and then play bridge. Doing anything else seems like you are trying to twist the laws in order to win matchpoints that you do not deserve based on cardplay.

The thing that I find troubling is this:

She began by saying she didn't think she had picked the cards up... Her partner then indicated that she had picked her cards up, and she finally relented...

When the director arrived, the player's first plan of attack appears to be to lie to him about the sequence of events. Once this is determined, she should lose, whatever the details of the case actually are.

[jillybean]

If a player picks up their bidding cards, and realizes that they could have made some other call before anything else happens (in particular, before the opening lead is made face-down), I'd allow them to back up, as a "no harm, no foul" ruling.

If the player had used a pass card rather than picking up their cards to indicate a final pass, then I assume you would not be so lenient in allowing them to back up? This sounds like a compelling reason not to use the pass card in the pass out seat.

[nige1]

If directors are allowed to choose which rules they enforce, are players free to choose which rules they obey? :)

This trend could ruin a wonderful game :(

[jillybean]

thanks

[sfi]

What you just quoted was a response to a specific post, it now appears out of context.

 

Apologies. Post removed.

[paua]

If the player had used a pass card rather than picking up their cards to indicate a final pass, then I assume you would not be so lenient in allowing them to back up? This sounds like a compelling reason not to use the pass card in the pass out seat.

 

The final pass could be considered as an unintended bid.

- Oh bother, I've just found another card, I'd like to bid 3H now, "Director !"

I don't think that's the case here, but the Laws would allow it, IMHO.

 

 

Just as an aside, if the bidding goes Pass - Pass - Pass - Pass and 3rd hand then claims to have made an unintended bid, are they allowed to open ? This would be open to abuse, with say 11 HCP, waiting to see if LHO is going to pass.

[mink]

The final pass could be considered as an unintended bid.

- Oh bother, I've just found another card, I'd like to bid 3H now, "Director !"

I don't think that's the case here, but the Laws would allow it, IMHO.

An unintended call is only unintended if in the moment the call was made it was the player's intention to make a different call. Finding another card subsequently does not affect the intention to pass when the card was not yet found. A normal way unintended calls happen with bidding boxes is that the unintended bidding card sticks to the intended one.

 

Karl

[blackshoe]

It would be rare to allow a player a change of call under Law 25A to some bid when he's put out a pass card.

[gordontd]

- Oh bother, I've just found another card, I'd like to bid 3H now, "Director !"

I don't think that's the case here, but the Laws would allow it, IMHO.

Not IMO.

[Cyberyeti]

It would be rare to allow a player a change of call under Law 25A to some bid when he's put out a pass card.

Seen it happen many times when pass is pulled instead of stop (unless this is done under a different law).

 

Not sure what happens in this situation if the previous call was a double by LHO and RHO leads face up on seeing your pass removed from the bidding box with apparent intent to play.

[nige1]

The thing that I find troubling is this: When the director arrived, the player's first plan of attack appears to be to lie to him about the sequence of events. Once this is determined, she should lose, whatever the details of the case actually are.

In a lot of cases (e.g. most BIT cases) both sides cannot be telling the truth. Nevertheless, IMO, the director shouldn't assume that players are deliberately lying. Selective memory and rationalisation are as widespread among bridge-players as in the the population at large.

[blackshoe]

Seen it happen many times when pass is pulled instead of stop (unless this is done under a different law).

 

Not sure what happens in this situation if the previous call was a double by LHO and RHO leads face up on seeing your pass removed from the bidding box with apparent intent to play.

What different law? I've seen pass pulled instead of stop exactly once in the last fifteen years.

 

In the EBU, the call (pass) is made. A face up opening lead ends the auction period, so you don't get to change your pass. However, the face up opening lead is an irregularity, albeit not one that rates a PP. I suppose the TD might adjust the score (Law 23, Law 12A).

 

In the ACBL, the call (pass) is not made, so the lead is out of turn. The auction period is not yet over, so Law 24 applies.

[Cyberyeti]

What different law? I've seen pass pulled instead of stop exactly once in the last fifteen years.

 

In the EBU, the call (pass) is made. A face up opening lead ends the auction period, so you don't get to change your pass. However, the face up opening lead is an irregularity, albeit not one that rates a PP. I suppose the TD might adjust the score (Law 23, Law 12A).

 

In the ACBL, the call (pass) is not made, so the lead is out of turn. The auction period is not yet over, so Law 24 applies.

I've seen pass many times, double (also red) even more often and redouble and the TD call card a couple of times instead of stop.

[blackshoe]

What TD call card? :D

 

I think I've seen double instead of pass once, or maybe twice, and redouble never. Don't your players ever look at the box before they pull a card? :lol:

[jillybean]

A pass card is solid green PASS, a redouble card is solid blue XX, what caused you not to see the XX is inattention.

I think the only reason a bid or pass is allowed to be taken back in an auction is when there has been misinformation, but not because

a player has been inattentive. I have put a pass card on the table after my partners keycard ask because I have been inattentive and quite rightly, not been allowed to take back my pass.

 

However, since ACBL regulations state that if you are using bid boxes, a bid is not made until a bid card is placed on the table, therefore until a player puts a bid on the table, they have not made a call. For those too lazy to use a pass card, this opens up the possibility for abuse or at minimum, recovery from a moment of inattentiveness.

And I should say here, it's not only the players in the pass out seat who indicate that they are passing by picking up their bidding cards, players in 2nd, 3rd seat also do this when they believe the auction has ended.

 

I'm using this case to highlight what I see as a potential problem. I wasn't at the table, I don't know how things transpired. If they player was inexperienced

and in fact rather than "not seeing" the XX, didn't realise that she could bid again after X (XX) P (P), which I think is quite possible, then this is an opportunity for the director to provide some education rather than enforce laws. If indeed it was inattention, I would hope the contract would stand but it seems that the director has no grounds to force a pass on someone who has simply picked up their bidding cards.

 

http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/558/bidcards.png

[blackshoe]

MI is not the only reason a player might be allowed to change her call. Certainly inattentiveness is not a valid reason, but an unintended call can be changed. Even an intended call can be changed, if the change is made without asking and LHO accepts it. And various irregularities, usually by opps, may create a situation in which calls can be changed — MI is only one such.

[jillybean]

Unintended: Involuntary; not under control of the will;

not the intention of the player at the moment of his action.

 

Does this limit unintended bids to ones that are caused by a mechanical error rather than a slip of the mind?

 

Ie A player pulls 3H out of the bidding box , but the 3S card comes out also?

[blackshoe]

Not necessarily, although "mechanical error" is the most common thing, using bidding boxes.

[kevperk]

I might use the stop card if a sufficient number of partners/opponents/directors/whoever prompted me to do so. As it is, the actual number is exactly zero in 20+ years (on and off) of bridge. If I ever meet you guys at the table, you can be the first!

An ACBL director friend of mine who is also a very good player told me he no longer uses the stop card so that he can almost always get his bid on the table before his LHO. :lol:

[CSGibson]

 

It appears that those following the correct pass procedures are at a disadvantage.

 

This wildly overstates the situation. There is no way that there is any real competitive advantage to passing with a pass card as opposed to picking up your cards, and certainly not enough of one to actually worry about. This is a complete non-issue, but it appears by the statements in this thread...specifically the one quoted... like you are blowing it up out of proportion.

[kevperk]

When this (picking up bidding cards) came up at a tournament at which I was directing, what I thought was that I was going to do is decide whether I believed that if the player in question had been playing online, and at this point, would they be sitting there wondering why the hand had not proceeded to the play period. When I used to play online, I have had opponents finally write "oh, I thought the auction was over, didn't realize I had another bid" when in the passout seat. I believe that playing face to face, they would have picked up the bidding cards.

[jillybean]

This wildly overstates the situation. There is no way that there is any real competitive advantage to passing with a pass card as opposed to picking up your cards, and certainly not enough of one to actually worry about. This is a complete non-issue, but it appears by the statements in this thread...specifically the one quoted... like you are blowing it up out of proportion.

How does this wildly overstate the situation? No where in this thread have I stated that this is a frequent problem. It is however a fact that those players who do not use a pass card have an advantage over those that do.

[CSGibson]

How does this wildly overstate the situation? No where in this thread have I stated that this is a frequent problem. It is however a fact that those players who do not use a pass card have an advantage over those that do.

 

It wildly overstates it because I don't actually see any advantage. Let's say that, worst case scenerio, someone is maliciously acting as you suggest, picking up cards so that they can make a bid if they change their mind later. They don't have any additional information available to help them to make this decision, so I don't see why they have an advantage. They could have taken as much time as they wanted anyway, there's no need to manipulate your mannerisms to create an artificial window in which you can deliberate a decision further through lying.

[jillybean]

I said the worst case, someone abuses the situation. I imagine people could think of many ways to abuse this, I pickup my bidding cards and then make a bid, this passes some predetermined information to my partner. Laugh if you like, this isn't the enemy I am concerned about. The problem is where the player misses a bid, is inattentative, picks up their bidding cards to put them back in the box and then realises they should have bid. Their partner twitched, the opponents gasped, the player suddenly woke up, something caused the player to realise they should have bid. Even if my bidding cards are back in the box I can still take them out again and make a bid.

Compare this to a player who uses a pass card.