Poll: meaning of these sandwich bids

[Chamaco]

After 1 over 1 by opps,

please describe the PRECISE strength, either in terms of losers or hcp.

 

Say bidding goes 1C-pass-1H-?

(but the question refers more generally to ANY 1 over 1 by opps)

 

1) 1NT (assuming unusual)

What is the worse shape and the best shape (can it be 44, can it be 54, etc)? Max losers and min losers (or hcp if you want )?

 

2) double

If balanced (4432), what is the min and max strength ?

If unbalanced, what is the difference from other takeout bids (quantify pls in terms of losers or hcp :-) )?

 

3) 2NT

What is the best and worse shape ? is is strictly 55 or better? In that case what is the difference from other takeout bids (quantify pls :-) )?

 

4) 2C = cheapest cue

Is it a 2-suiter ? If so, how differentfrom other 2-suited bids in terms of promised length and losers ?

 

5) 2H = highest cue

Is it a 2-suiter ? If so, how different from other 2-suited bids in terms of promised length and losers (quantify pls in terms of losers or hcp :-) )?

 

6) 3C = cheapest jump-cue

What does it mean ? How does it differentiate from other similar meaning bids ?

Can it be stopper ask for NT ?

 

7) 3H = highest jump-cue

What does it mean ? How does it differentiate from other similar meaning bids ?

Can it be stopper ask for NT ?

 

8) 3NT

What does it mean ? How does it differentiate from other similar meaning bids ?

Can it be to play ?

 

9) 4NT

If it is unusual, what is the required strength in terms of losers and how does it differentiate vs other 2 suited bids (quantify please in terms of losers or hcp :-) ) ?

[arrows]

I suggest the following simple agreement. not intend to be prefect, but try to

utilize all the bids available in a sensible way.

 

After 1X pass 1Y ? (X and Y are both suit bid)

where most likely X is a minor and Y is a major.

 

1. double: take out of Y, i.e. if partner bid 2X is natural and intend to play.

 

2. 1NT: the other two suits, 5-4+, the higher rank suit is longer or equal length.

 

3. 2X: cuebid also show the other 2 suits, the lower rank suit is longer.

 

4. 2Y: this is a Natural overcall (against possibly psycho or the responder bid

on Jxxx or worse and may steal your major contract).

 

5. 2N: this is both MINORS. 5-5+

 

6. others, natural

[PriorKnowledge]

Sandwich 1N ( (1D) p (1S) 1N). I keep this natural 15-18. Reason is today's light openings and light responses. After all, you have t/o dbl, 2N, and q-bid in both suits still available.

[Chamaco]

I suggest the following simple agreement. not intend to be prefect, but try to

utilize all the bids available in a sensible way.

 

Thanks very much :-)

 

I am not willing to be perfect, but I would like to know the upper and lower strength requirements for 2 suiters.

 

Just saying "this bid shows 54 this other 55" is very vague, and not enough for me . :-)

 

Otherwise you (or at least, *I*) never know how high to bid in response to the 2-suited overcall.

Soi please, specify the best and worse hand you may have for each 2 suiters .-)

This is the real meaning of this thread: specify *quantitatively* (or by example hands if you do not like to give quantitative ranges) the strength ranges of 2 suiters, either in hcp or losers.

 

Since they say that 1/2 suiters are best evaluated by losers, I think it makes sense to use LTC to classify upper and lower strength requirements.

 

But any other way to describe 2 suiters will be ok if it can be quantified and put on a system notes on paper (so it constrains the instincts of pards who have trouble passing :angry: ).

 

Just relying on "judgment" to evaluate wherther the 54 or 55 hand is too strong or too weak, will work if you are on the same wavelength, but many times, without precise requirements on the system notes, it may raise pship discussions.

In the specific case this will be especially true if the advancer will raise preemptively to the wrong level, based on the assumption that overcaller should have a given offensive potential.

 

So I have come to the conclusion that written notes are the best way to avoid this: none of the partners will be lecturing the othwer when things go wrong, there will be the system notes to refer to without need of "lecturing" .

Of course, this does not mean that one cannot deviate, but it helps a lot to have specific requirements for the "ideal hand", so that based on this, you can occasionally deviate a bit.

(Much like when you open 1NT with 14 hcp: you deviate from the 15-17 hcp range, *but the range is there*- here I need to specify strength range for 2-suiters, and occasionally there will be some deviation, provided it happens only occasionally)

[Free]

The way I'm playing these days is the following:

 

1X - pass - 1Y - ?

 

Dbl = 4-4 other suits

1NT = 5+ & 4 other suits (lower 5+ card)

2X = 5+ & 4 other suits (higher 5+ card)

2Y = 55+ other suits

[Stephen Tu]

(1X)-P-(1Y)-?

 

Given that X is often bad 3 cds & Y is often bad 4 cds, I strongly suggest 2X & 2Y be natural. 2 or 3 bids to show the other suits is quite enough, you don't need 5 of them!

 

I've gotten many good results from being able to bid the opponent's "suits" naturally, very few bad ones.

[pclayton]

No need to have a Q showing the unbid suits, unless you choose to play 1N as natural.

[Finch]

My life is much simpler than you suggest.

 

(1X) P (1Y) :

 

double: 4-4 in the other two suits, or 4 cards in the other major, 5 in the other minor. Similar strength to an immediate take-out double at the 1-level (i.e. usually opening values or so). Can be weaker in HCP if 5-5, then about 9+ HCP. Or a very strong single-suiter (the typcial take-out double then bid type hand). If 1Y is 1S, you might have 5 hearts and 4 of the other minor depending on suit quality, just like over 1H double (for me) pretty much denies 5 spades, but 1S x doesn't deny 5 hearts.

 

1NT, 2X, 2Y, 3X, 3Y, 3NT: natural. Similar strength to a direct overcall (1NT usually a little stronger), 2X/2Y similar to a 2-level overcall but show a good suit.

 

2NT: at least 5-5, often 6-5 in the unbid suits. Strength depends on vulnerability: at favourable KJxxx and KQxxx would be fine, although minimum. Vul against not usually 6-5.

 

4NT: hugely 2-suited, usually 6-6, expecting to make at the 5-level.

[Gerben47]

I play the cue bids as natural as long as opponent's bid in the suit did not promise 5 cards.

 

About 1NT natural: I seem to get doubled a lot when I try that, so that's a 2-suiter. 1NTx with 17 opposite 1 does not seem to play well...

 

1NT more distributional than Dbl and emphasizes the lowest unbid suit.