Bidding after a cardinal sin

[nikos59]

Playing with a pickup partner who said was expert,

with "2/1, Sayc, many conventions... just ask"

on his profile, we were having good results against indifferent

opposition, and I hadn't found either the need or

the opportunity to ask about said conventions.

 

We are vul against not and I hold

 

AKQ9x

xx

J

A8xxx

 

Partner passes, RHO passes, I open 1S, pard jumps to 3NT!

 

I presume there is a spade fit around so I don't pass.

I bid 4C, he replies 4D, I bid 4S.

This is double at left. Pard bids 5D. Doubled at right.

I bid 5S, doubled.

 

Pard has:

---

xxx

AKQ10xxx

J10x

 

At this point, I play a couple of tricks, enough to have a

word with partner, and I concede down 6 and leave

the table, BBO and the country :) I know it is

not down 6 but when a cardinal sin is committed

then the result must reflect this fact.

 

5D would make on the actual lie of the cards, even

3NT with no heart lead. But this is by the way. I know

that I shouldnt bid 5S but how can I imagine all this

opposite?

 

I don't ask you to assign the blame because for me

a passed hand cannot jump to game without

a fit for partner, this is a 110% rule so when this

cardinal sin is committed everything else is

of secondary significance.

 

So, I have other questions:

would you pass pard's hand as opener?

would you pass after 1S-3NT?

 

n.

[bearmum]

Playing with a pickup partner who said was expert,

with "2/1, Sayc, many conventions... just ask"

on his profile, we were having good results against indifferent

opposition, and I hadn't found either the need or

the opportunity to ask about said conventions.

 

We are vul against not and I hold

 

AKQ9x

xx

J

A8xxx

 

Partner passes, RHO passes, I open 1S, pard jumps to 3NT!

 

I presume there is a spade fit around so I don't pass.

I bid 4C, he replies 4D, I bid 4S.

This is double at left. Pard bids 5D. Doubled at right.

I bid 5S, doubled.

 

Pard has:

---

xxx

AKQ10xxx

J10x

 

At this point, I play a couple of tricks, enough to have a

word with partner, and I concede down 6 and leave

the table, BBO and the country :) I know it is

not down 6 but when a cardinal sin is committed

then the result must reflect this fact.

 

5D would make on the actual lie of the cards, even

3NT with no heart lead. But this is by the way. I know

that I shouldnt bid 5S but how can I imagine all this

opposite?

 

I don't ask you to assign the blame because for me

a passed hand cannot jump to game without

a fit for partner, this is a 110% rule so when this

cardinal sin is committed everything else is

of secondary significance.

 

So, I have other questions:

would you pass pard's hand as opener?

would you pass after 1S-3NT?

 

n.

Well first up - MAYBE U should have established a FEW conventions ( RKCB ?splinters ? and what over opps 1NT ? wjs ? -- to name but 4 I can think of ) :P

 

But allowing that you didn't even explore any of them I would take pards 3NT bid as something I didn't understand ( BUT NOT supporting spades) that I would PASS and let "expert" play the hand :P

 

To answer your other questions

1 NO I would :) open 3D with your partners hand

2 YES I would PASS 3NT

[pbleighton]

I agree with Bearmum, pass 3NT. 3NT is always to play, unless you have specifically agreed otherwise (i.e. Serious 3NT). If partner made a mistake, make him play it :)

 

3NT was a terrible bid, 2D was the right bid, but I wouldn't have passed originally with that hand, I would have opened 1D.

 

Peter

[luke warm]

i think 'standard' 3nt in that situation is 13-15 flat with maybe 2 card support for spades... i'd pass it, and i'd also open pard's hand.. not preemptively tho, i'd open 1d

[EricK]

Whether partner should have opened or not (he should) or whether his 3NT bid was correct or not (it wasn't), it must surely be clear after 4♦ and 5♦ that he has approximately this hand.

 

Furthermore, whatever you imagine his hand to be how can it be right to play in 5♠ when your partner has already told you he doesn't want to play in 4♠X?

 

When partner makes "impossible" bids, there is always the possibility that he misclicked, or his mind was wandering etc. And maybe he was just trying to "catch up" - after all once he has passed, 2♦ would be NF.

 

Eric

[flytoox]

I think I would not pass 3N. but i will pass 5Dx. From pd's point-of-view, 3N maybe right. But he also has to think about what you will think about 3N. You are not bidding alone. IN F2F, a loud 3N could acheive this effect though:).

[mila85]

I don't see any problem in results like this one when I play with unknown partner.

 

I would bid 4c.

I would pass 5d.

[inquiry]

Something went despirately horribly wrong. But let's back up...

 

3NT was wrong

 

But what was?

• 4♣? second suit? slam try with lots of spades? Perhpas either/or ?
  
• 4♦ is in theory cooperation for slam try ? Can 4♦ ever be to play? No. At this point the bid should have been 5♦ I suspect.
  
• 4♠ - If 4♣ was slam try, this shows need ♥ help, if 4♠ was pickem, expect partner to pass 4♠ or bid 5♣
  
• 5♦ - sounds like something has gone horribly wrong in the auction
  
• 5♠ - first bad bid by you... below is why.
  

Over 5♦X.. you have opened spades and rebid them, they doubled and partner pulled. Do you have extra spade length? No. What is partner doing? No idea, but you never, not once suggested diamonds. What I think the right thing to do here is to pass 5♦X and let partner decide what to do. Why? Because you have bid accurately your hand, and he seems be all over the place. If he has spades (as you summize he should), he will pull back to 5♠. If he has some bizzaro hand like this, he will pass. When playing with a partner whose bidding is impossible (or insane), when a final decision has to be made.. try to let the wacko make it, not because he is smarter than you, not so he can make the last mistake, .... but because only he knows for sure what he has.... at least he should have a good view of you hand (spades, clubs, probably no heart stoppper). Now if you were making a slam try with seven solid spades and the club ACE, ok go ahead and bid 5♠... but then they are not doubling 4 and 5 ♠'s.

 

ben

[Antoine Fourrière]

Partner had an unpleasant hand, one for which has been devised an unpleasant convention. What should he open? 1♦, I think, because 3♦ is horrible and 3N wrongsides that contract. If he passes, what should he answer over 1♠? He was stuck by then, and hoped, wrongly again, that 3N would be taken as natural, but 2♦ would have been horrible too.

On the other hand, you should have thought that he could have AKQxxxx of diamonds and passed 5♦ to give him a cop-out, because you could afford it. So he is certainly guiltier than you, but not to the extent you had to simply drop him.

[HeartA]

I would NOT open 1D (nothing else in other suit) or 3D (D is tooo good). I might open 3NT or pass with pd's hand. I would pass pd's 3NT, as I was not sure what 3NT meant, but would let pd handle it. To pull 5DX to 5S was completely wrong, especially after 4S already got dbled.

[nickf]

My major concern about the contents of this post are:

 

At this point, I play a couple of tricks, enough to have a word with partner, and I concede down 6 and leave the table, BBO and the country...I know it is not down 6 but when a cardinal sin is committed then the result must reflect this fact.

 

Without pointing any bones, I think you both bid the hand atrociously but you have to also consider your responsibility to the field. Conceding 1700 when, as you admit, you were always getting out for less will impact upon the board datum and everyone else's score.

 

nick f

sydney

[pclayton]

I open you pard's hand 1♦ or 3N, whatever the system allows. Why did you think there was ♠ tolerance when he bid 3N? 3N is just about impossible by a passed pard. The meaning can be a lot of different things. I confess I would have passed; if pard does have a partial black suit fit then your hand will provide a lot of tricks.

 

I can sense some irritation when he bid 4♦ over 4♣; I know I would be. But what did you expect? You tried to salvage the hand with 4♠. Maybe pard should have let you simmer in that fun spot.

 

You were clearly 'on tilt' when you bid 5♠.

 

Like Nick; I have an issue with you creating an abnormal result to atone for your cardinal sin. If you feel guilty about something you bid, put on a hair shirt or break out the cat with 9 tails. But don't make the field pay 4 IMPs per pair for their 'normal' result, because of your indiscretion.

 

Next time an unknown player does something to miff you, take a deep breath and remember that partner is the only one at the table on your team. Clear your head and try to reconstruct a hand that makes sense for his bidding.

 

If you have reasonably analyzed the hand during the bidding and find out later he's clearly off his rocker, then politely leave.

[Guest Jlall]

conceding down 6 in live bridge would be grounds for disciplinary action. If I was your partner i would definitely have reported you to abuse@. Regardless of how your partner bid the hand, your conduct was very improper which is much more serious. Your bidding was also horrible.

[kgr]

My major concern about the contents of this post are:

 

At this point, I play a couple of tricks, enough to have a word with partner, and I concede down 6 and leave the table, BBO and the country...I know it is not down 6 but when a cardinal sin is committed then the result must reflect this fact.

 

Without pointing any bones, I think you both bid the hand atrociously but you have to also consider your responsibility to the field. Conceding 1700 when, as you admit, you were always getting out for less will impact upon the board datum and everyone else's score.

 

nick f

sydney

Agree. This was the biggest mistake.

Would you also leave if playing f2f bridge.

Why not taking the bad result and go-on? Was it that important?

[whereagles]

Leaving any sports competition on grounds of poor performance is unethical and liable to disciplinary procedures.

[PriorKnowledge]

I think partner's bidding was acceptable and yours was terrible.

 

pass - Partner did not know if you played Gambling 3N, so elected to pass. OK

1S - OK

3N - looks like good gambling 3N now. OK

4C - Unbalanced, looking for slam. I would have passed but 4C is OK

4D - My suit

4S - my suit again

5D - Please, my suit. My 3N bid is now obvious to all at the table but my partner

5S - The most atrocious bid I have ever seen. Aren't you paying attention to the auction? Partner pulled 4SX to 5D. You have now bid this suit 3 times all the way to 5 level, when you showed it to be 5 cards with your first bid. Amazing.

 

What makes you think 3N supported spades? Without discussion, this is natural. Partner could bid Jacoby 2N with support. Why would s/he confuse you? Especially after running from 4SX?

 

And you left and blamed partner?

[cf_John0]

It's obvious that 3NT is gambling!

If there 's a convention of gambling between them,3NT will be the open bidding!

[mpefritz]

With my established partners, we have a conventional meaning for 3NT by a passed hand in this sequence. It means: "Pard, I missorted/misbid/misclicked, and I do not have a rational way of bidding my hand at this point." We have no planned continuations over this call. I would assume that my unknown partner made this call.

 

I am not sure if it is GCC legal ;)

 

fritz

 

p.s. Your pard could have thought: "Does Nikos think 2♦ is 4 card limit raise or might Nikos think that 3♦ is some form of bergen by a passed hand...uh...hmm...3NT"

[bearmum]

With my established partners, we have a conventional meaning for 3NT by a passed hand in this sequence.  It means: "Pard, I missorted/misbid/misclicked, and I do not have a rational way of bidding my hand at this point."  We have no planned continuations over this call.  I would assume that my unknown partner made this call.

 

I am not sure if it is GCC legal  ;)

 

fritz

 

p.s. Your pard could have thought:  "Does Nikos think 2♦ is 4 card limit raise or might Nikos think that 3♦ is some form of bergen by a passed hand...uh...hmm...3NT"

Don't think it's allowed to have THIS type of "understanding" UNLESS it's alerted by the person bidding 3NT ;) DIRECTORS please adjudicate

[Chamaco]

3NT was not such a bad bid.

 

3NT by passed hand can be reasonably thought of as "to play".

And a well known bridge rule says that when you do not understand pard's bidding, pass and be ready to blame him :P.

 

Here 3NT is a sort of gambling NT bid, which makes some sense.

A long running minor is a good reason to force to game, even by a passed hand, so I do not see a problem there.

 

Moreover, as others pointed out, without agreements, there is the risk that 2 diamonds response is understood by opener as "2-way drury" (invitational with 4 card support in the major); the 3 diamonds response may on the other hand be mistaken for some kind of fitshowing jump or Bergen raise.

 

So I think 3NT is ok.

----------------------------

 

As for the rest of the bidding, what kind of sin is it for opener to rebid 3 times one's own hand and values ? :)

I suggest you both find a good priest to confess all of those evil sins anbd be ready to start again the day after !! :D

[rona_]

But Chamaco, Andrew Greeley's latest book is called "The Priestly Sins" so who do they confess to :)

[EarlPurple]

Cardinal Sins is a book by David Bird (and Terence Reese) about the Abbot...

 

As for the hand, I would have opened 3NT with that long diamond hand.

I agree with the other comments:

- You've bid your hand, so let partner decide

- You should not concede 6 off but play it to the best of the ability to keep the penalty low

- If this was in the Main Bridge Club then you may leave the table at the end of the hand if you desire. If a tourney then quitting is obviously wrong.