PP's

[blackshoe]

Playing Romex, I would open 2♣, planning to rebid 3♣ to show a two-suiter with primary clubs. If partner bids 3♦, asking for my second suit, I would bid 3♠, and later 4♠. Swap the clubs and diamonds, and I would open 2♦, and in principle the bidding would proceed the same way, rebidding 3♣ to show the two-suiter.

[steve2005]

3♦ bad too - if you don't bid 2♠ at first chance then do so at second opportunity. now you have shown 6-5 and can pass 4♥ knowing you haven't missed a black suit fit. thinking about slam is very optimistic with no fit

[kenberg]

I had not noticed that the partner's hand was posted later. Looking at that:

 

 

Cyberyeti caught that I said 5-2 below rather than 5-1, and he is also correct that even this can be handled if the contract is 3NT. Thanks. My error(s)

 

 

There are three seven card fits (if seven opposite zero is called a fit) with clubs being stronger than either major. We could end up anywhere. 3NT has ten easy tricks. Oops. Not if clubs split 5-1. 4♥ should come in. Oops, not if hearts split 5-1. I guess spades survive a 5-1 split thanks to the Jack.

 

 

 

I think 1♣-1♥-2♠-3♥-3♠ is a decent start with natural bidding. Probably this ends in 4♥, but there are choices.Maybe pard realizes ho important his spade Jack is and raises 3♠ to 4. We can hope.

[Cyberyeti]

I had not noticed that the partner's hand was posted later. Looking at that:

 

There are three seven card fitd (if seven opposite zero is called a fit) with clubs being stronger than either major. We could end up anywhere. 3NT has ten easy tricks. Oops. Not if clubs split 5-2. 4♥ should come in. Oops, not if hearts split 5-2. I guess spades survive a 5-2 split thanks to the Jack.

 

 

You don't very often get a 5-2 break when you have a 6-1 fit. 3N will make 9 tricks even if clubs are 5-1 or 6-0.

[kenberg]

You don't very often get a 5-2 break when you have a 6-1 fit. 3N will make 9 tricks even if clubs are 5-1 or 6-0.

 

Ah yes, I meant 5-1 didn't I. And yes, you can bring in nine tricks in NT. I was thinking four clubs, two diamonds, one heart one spade. But I guess you can manage it regardless.

[Fluffy]

I will remember to check for the Laos/Aussie flag.

Do you have a forcing opening for this, I see some did open 2C but I don't like that with a 2 suiter.

 

Partner held J4,AT85432,875,K, 6♣ makes when RHO doubles and spades split 3-3 (986,KT5)

 

6 spades score better than 6 clubs unless they only double where they don't have any possible trick.

 

I would open 1 spade at MPs, but 1♣ is ok, bidding diamonds before rebiddind spades is horrible. I would had redoubled 4 hearts as well, the 4♥ bid looks horrible to me but might come from missinterpretation of 3♦

[PhilKing]

 

The 4♥ bid looks horrible to me but might come from missinterpretation of 3♦

 

Assuming 2♠ over 1♥ is, of all things, natural and forcing, what possible hand can we have for 3♦ containing a void heart having bid only 1♠?

 

Not saying partner should not bid 3♥, but in a scratch partnership, the jump to four does not make the top three crimes in the auction, passing 4♥ doubled being the worst imo.

[the hog]

4H is poor. Partner should have bid 3H.

[PhilKing]

4H is poor. Partner should have bid 3H.

 

Name a hand where we have our 3♦ bid and yet 4♥ is poor from partner's perspective (assuming we could bid 2♠ nat GF over 1♥).

 

3♦ cannot logically be game forcing. He can't bid 3NT, he can't bid game in a black suit, yet it looks like we can make 10 or 11 tricks in hearts, how can we lose 4 tricks without bad luck or bad breaks?

 

3♥ would just be pusillanimous (though I am still not saying partner could not bid it B-) ).

[the hog]

4♥ shows a much better h suit than A empty. I agree the bidding up to now has been a sow's ear.

[kenberg]

Phil has forced me to rethink, and I agree. I was focused on how I think the auction should have begun: 1♣-1♥-2♠-3♥-3♠. At this point I have shown (at least) eleven black cards and given partner no reason to think that my two red cards are hearts. If he now bids 4♥, he can run from a double if he wishes, but I sit.

 

 

But now to the auction as it happend:

 

1♣-1♥-1♠-2♥-3♦.

 

What is responder to think? 1♠ was passable, responder has rebid a very passable 2♥, now opener thinks we should go on. Why? This can only be because the 2♥ improved her hand. And yes, 3♦ cannot be game forcing, not if 1♠ was non-forcing (more about that in a minute). The 2♥ can be quite weak. If weak jump shifts are being played, it probably cannot be the KQxxxx and out that I mentioned earlier, but if there is a stray jack somewhere that probably moves the hand above the wjs threshold. Responder has an ace and extra length in a suit that partner seems reasoably happy with. He has the K in partner's opening suit. Plus a Jack. Looks good to me. If pard can bid 3♦ over my very weak previous bidding, I can bid 4♥.

 

 

With the KQxxxx hand, with or without the stray Jack, 3♥ is enough and now opener is free to pass or bid 4♥ or whatever she had in mind when she bid 3♦. But with seven hearts to the ace, expecting modest hearts in the dummy and a good hand, partner can envision the play. Win the opening lead, heart to the ace and another heart, and start collecting tricks. Probably there are ten of them to collect.

 

Now about 1♠ as non-forcing. In standard, afaik, new suits by responder are forcing (there are exceptions to that also) but a non-jump non-reverse bid by opener is not.It presumably would be seldom passed, but with xxx/KQxxx/xxx/xx I would like to bid 1♥ over 1♣ and I would like to pass 1♠. Not that I like playing 1♠, but I wanted to see if we can play on hearts, and anyway we are surely in a 4-3 fit rather than the somewhat possible 3-2 fit, or the quite possible 4-2 fit, in clubs.

 

So now Kathryn, as she said, has gotten herself into a jam. Partner has bid 4♥ on the assumption he was being encouraged to do so. That's different from when he does so after opener shows eleven black cards. A pull becomes more attractive. And no doubt also more confusing. So they landed in 6♣ making. It's a Chrsitmas gift.

[Fluffy]

Assuming 2♠ over 1♥ is, of all things, natural and forcing, what possible hand can we have for 3♦ containing a void heart having bid only 1♠?

 

3♦ can be taken as: natural (5440) seminat (5431) superaccept with short diamonds(6430, 7420, or 5431 with extras) and there are some people out there who even think 4SF exists on this situation.

[cherdano]

I don't think 3♦ as natural or seminatural makes any sense. If it doesn't show a heart fit, or at least tolerance to play 3♦, it is logically game forcing. How can we have a game force when we couldn't bit 2♠ a round earlier? Only if our hand improved by the 2♥ bid, so we have a heart fit, or at least a fitting honor.

[PhilKing]

We have shown: ♠AKxx ♥Q ♦ATx ♣AJTxx or similar.

 

With two or more hearts, we would just just raise. We can almost underwrite 3♥ but do not want to overstress our support. 3♦ also keeps 3NT in the game when pard has ♠xx ♥ATxxxx ♦Jxx ♣Kx. Partner has bid correctly in jumping to 4♥ and it was careless to leave him stewing there when righty advertised four trump tricks.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

South

1C - 1H

2S! = GGG, Gnasher's Gameforce Gadget

 

Since it is GF, neither of you needs any further jumps.

Without any special follow-ups, I think you can end up in 4S....

with my special follow-ups :

South

A Q x x x ........ J x

void ................ A 10 8 x x x x

A K ................ x x x

A Q J x x x ..... K

 

1C - 1H

2S! - 2NT! ( asks clarification )

??

... 3C = no 4s, no 3h; just long ♣

... 3D ( other minor ) = 4+s, no 3h

... 3H = no 4s but have 3h

... 3S = have 4s and 3h

 

After:

3D! - 3H

3S ( 5s/6c ) - 4S

pass

[rmnka447]

With a 2 loser hand, I'm opening 2 ♣ on this hand.

 

If I ever chose to open 1 ♣, then I think 2 ♠ followed by 3 ♠ would be right. There's no reason not to show the 6-5 nature of the hand. After 3 ♠ if partner bids 4 ♥ and gets doubled, you can sit for it knowing you pretty much have told your story.

 

After the actual auction, I'm sitting for 4 ♥x. Partner has heard me bid the other 3 suits and still chose to bid 4 ♥.

[the hog]

Well you can open 2C of course, but good luck getting to the right strain if the bidding goes 2C (4H) P (P).

Now what? 4S and find pd with x xxxx xxxx Kxxx or 5C and find pd with xxxx xxxx xxxx x or many similar hands.

[kenberg]

After the actual auction, I'm sitting for 4 ♥x. Partner has heard me bid the other 3 suits and still chose to bid 4 ♥.

 

 

The problem with this, I think, is that opener has not exactly bid the other three suits, at least not in the sense of showing the other three suits. For exampel, opener would not be happy to have 3♦ raised to 4♦ by a responder who holds, say, six hearts that he has shown and four diamonds that he has not shown. The 3♦ bid requires interpretation. I have belatedly come to understand that the most reasonable interpretation is that the 2♥ bid has improved opener's hand. Of course it did no such thing, and that is why there is a real problem after 4♥ gets doubled.

 

 

I really think that 1♣ is the right opening on hands like this. My thinking is that it is very unlike to be passed out, and after that I will be in a fine position to effectively deal with my shape. Take, for example, the sort of auction Hog suggests. I start with a club, the opponents come in with hearts, partner passes, it's at the 4♥ level when it comes back to me. I now call 4♠. Does partner know what I have? Not exactly, but in this rapidly developing auction there is good reason to believe that I want to be in one of the black suits and also good reason to believe my partner will correctly choose which black suit that should be. True, we might end in 5 when we should be in 6 or end in 6 when we should be in 5, but the chance of ending in a completely ridiculous contract is much less than if I start with 2♣ and have to make a choice when it comes back to me at the 4♥ level.

 

I realize I am more or less just going on with what the Hog already said, so you could just take this as "Me toot".

[rmnka447]

Well you can open 2C of course, but good luck getting to the right strain if the bidding goes 2C (4H) P (P).

Now what? 4S and find pd with x xxxx xxxx Kxxx or 5C and find pd with xxxx xxxx xxxx x or many similar hands.

Your point is well taken.

 

Opening 1 ♣ also may just let the opponents compete, exchange enough information, and find a good sac against your game whereas 2 ♣ might be high enough to prevent that from happening. And of course, pard might also just have x xxxxx xxxxxx x and after 4 ♠ over 4 ♥ you're still out to lunch.

 

In the end, you pay your money and take your choice.