how to bid this slam

[patroclo]

[hv=pc=n&s=sak5ha3dat74ca643&w=sqj642htd953ct875&n=st8hkq865dkj62ckq&e=s973hj9742dq8cj92]399|300[/hv]

How to bid this slam and what suit.

east dealer

[manudude03]

Assuming opponents silent:

 

1D-1H

2NT-3C* (new minor forcing, checkback, whatever)

3D-4D** (minorwood)

4S***-5C**** (1/4, queen ask)

5D-6D

[mike777]

KISS

 

2nt=6nt

 

perhaps I will get a d lead :)

[mikeh]

Let me start by strongly recommendig that no intermediate player and (imo) few if any A players adopt the suggestion that the first time responder mentions diamonds should be ace asking.

 

Anyway, absent special agreements:

 

1♦ 1♥

2N 3♦

 

 

should be automatic.

 

S has a huge hand for slam purposes. He has 19 in controls.

 

I'd bid 3♠, which is temporizing. We might, were our hand different, be expecting to sign off in 3N or play a red suit game. Thus we might bid this way with AKx Ax AQJxx xxx, not wanting to play 3N opposite something like QJx Kxxxx Kxxx x but happy to do so with the blacks reversed in partner's hand.

 

As it is, we're always moving on with this huge hand, but so is responder.

 

With responder's hand, I'd bid 5N over 3♠, using 5N as a choice of slams. Opener, looking at Aces and spaces, and expecting that he may have to ruff, say, a heart in hand, will bid 6♦

 

if you lack the tools...maybe 5N isn't in your bag of tricks, the auction becomes murky but one thing is clear: N must show excitement over 3♠. The least he can do is cue 4♣. Now opener can bid 4♥, and responder could haul out keycard, in diamonds, if available. It wouldn't be for me, in the style I prefer, but I wouldn't be in that situation anyway, since I'd already be in 6♦ :P

 

I prefer transfers over 2N.

 

Responder bids 3♣, which opener must obey since responder might hold a terrible hand.

 

Now responder shows the 5th heart, forcing.

 

so

 

1♦ 1♥

2N 3♣

3♦ 3♥

 

Opener loves his hand and his first obligation is to say so. He could bid 3N but that is a regressive move and he has an enormous hand that has gotten better with the bidding. I suggest 4♦ to set trump (not, repeat not, keycard). Responder now bids 4♥ as kickback (4N would be a heart cuebid....a useful idea when playing kickback is to swap the meaning of the 'kickback cue' with the 'blackwood 4N').

 

Responder learns we're missing the trump Q and settles for the small slam.

[kenrexford]

i would open 2NT, after which the options for Responder would depend on his risk aversion.

[lycier]

[hv=pc=n&s=sak5ha3dat74ca643&w=sqj642htd953ct875&n=st8hkq865dkj62ckq&e=s973hj9742dq8cj92]399|300[/hv]

How to bid this slam and what suit.

east dealer

 

1♦——1♥

2nt----3♦* (wolff signoff, checkback with game force)

3nt**--4♦*** (deny 4 card ♠ and 3 card ♥,minorwood)

4♠****-5♣***** (1/4, queen ask)

5♦----6♦

[aguahombre]

We end in 6D. Natural, forcing 3-bids after a 2NT rebid make this a snap. It doesn't even matter whether our style is to open (32) 4 4 hands 1♣ or 1♦.

 

1m 1H

2N 3D

3S...off to the races in diamonds.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I agree with Ken-Rex that South's hand deserves an upgrade to a 2NT opening.

But I don't have a prearranged scheme to show a 4 card minor after a transfer to ♥.

 

Maybe from the point count:

2NT - 3D!

3H - 6D ( pass or correct to 6H or 6NT )

[ggwhiz]

If a 19 count (plus a ten) ever desrerved an upgrade to 2nt, this is it.

 

After 2nt. xfer, 3♥ 4♦ would be natural and forcing in my partnership but we may well end in 6nt and may well go down after mis-guessing the ♦Q.

[aguahombre]

upgrading that 19 to a 2nt opener is going out of our way to create a slam killing auction. It doesn't solve strain on this hand, and despite the somewhat balanced nature, opener is better suited for playing a suit contract.

[kenrexford]

upgrading that 19 to a 2nt opener is going out of our way to create a slam killing auction. It doesn't solve strain on this hand, and despite the somewhat balanced nature, opener is better suited for playing a suit contract.

If so, then please explain the ease of the auction after the slamkiller as contrasted with the alternative.

[aguahombre]

If so, then please explain the ease of the auction after the slamkiller as contrasted with the alternative.

Already done. read my first post.

 

Natural bidding to diamond slam (good). vs 2N and bull in China shop to 6NT (maybe sucessful).

[kenrexford]

Already done. read my first post.

 

Natural bidding to diamond slam (good). vs 2N and bull in China shop to 6NT (maybe sucessful).

 

What?!?

 

I don't think you understood my point. The "slamkiller" comment was yours. 2NT does not kill the slam at all. In fact, it is a rather simple auction to the ideal slam, if you want to be safe:

 

2NT-3♦(I have hearts)

3♥-5NT(pick a slam)

6♣(I have club interest)-6♦(I have presumably 2542)

6♦(OK then)-P

 

If the 2NT sequence is that easy, it is hardly a "slamkiller" auction. Granted, if you choose to bid out the hand to 6NT because you want to end up in a failing contract, then a 2NT opening is really dumb. But, then I could go "off to the races" in diamonds and randomly decide to place the contract in 6NT also in your auction.

[lycier]

What?!?

 

I don't think you understood my point. The "slamkiller" comment was yours. 2NT does not kill the slam at all. In fact, it is a rather simple auction to the ideal slam, if you want to be safe:

 

2NT-3♦(I have hearts)

3♥-5NT(pick a slam)

6♣(I have club interest)-6♦(I have presumably 2542)

6♦(OK then)-P

 

If the 2NT sequence is that easy, it is hardly a "slamkiller" auction. Granted, if you choose to bid out the hand to 6NT because you want to end up in a failing contract, then a 2NT opening is really dumb. But, then I could go "off to the races" in diamonds and randomly decide to place the contract in 6NT also in your auction.

 

If south held ♦AQxx ith 21hcp,and then play your 5nt again,7♦ was lost.so 5nt as a quantitative bid was not a precise description unless minorwood.

[lycier]

I think Minorwood is better than Quantitative in this hand.

[aguahombre]

If south held ♦AQxx ith 21hcp,and then play your 5nt again,7♦ was lost.so 5nt as a quantitative bid was not a precise description unless minorwood.

The upgraders wouldn't have that hand and open 2NT, so we are going around in circles here. What started as an easy natural auction to 6D has morphed into garble ---including the misuse of the term Minorwood.

[kenrexford]

The upgraders wouldn't have that hand and open 2NT, so we are going around in circles here.

 

Exactly. plus, there is a wildd difference between a slamkiller and a grandslamkiller.

 

[Fluffy]

I totally agree with aguahombre (I think), south's hand is great for slam, so that's why I open it 1m, to have space for description. On the other hand its a horrible hand to play thin 3NT... open 1♦!

 

I would make some cuebids:

 

1♦-1♥

2NT-3♦

3♠-4♣

4♥-4NT

5x-5♥ (queen ask)

5NT (Denies ♦Q)

.......-6♦

 

some people play that 6♦ is the queen denial, they would end the bidding half a round faster.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Fluffy's sequence is quite rational ( previous post # 18 ) .

 

Responder will know that the 1D open is at least 4 cards when the 1H response is not raised. [ The only time Opener would have 3 cards ♦ is with a 4 4 3 2 .... and ♥ would have been raised ].

 

So, no need for Responder to "ask" if Opener has 3 cards ♥ when holding a good 4 cards ♦ and slam values . It is well known that a 4-4 fit plays better more often than a 5-3 ... even if Opener had 3 card ♥ .

[kenberg]

I am pleased to see support for natural three level bids after 1m-1M-2NT. The other day, playing pickup, we had the auction 1♦-1♠-2NT-3♣. I figured he probably was just playing nmf, so i showed my three spades. Indeed that was what he had in mind. But I was 3=2=4=4 and I (briefly) considered raising clubs since in my preferred style that 3♣ bid shows clubs. Surely there might be a club slam available after 1♦-1♠-2NT and if I cannot raise clubs when I have two spades and three hearts, rather than my actual holding of three spades and two hearts, we might miss it unless we have discussed some serious follow-ups. Lacking these follow-ups, I far prefer natural over the 2NT. Anyway, I had three spades so I showed three spades.

 

 

On this hand, it's easy. 1♦-1♥-2NT-3♦. No doubt there will be horsing around after that to decide on six or seven, but either we have enough gadgetry to see that we should stop in six or, lacking that gadgetry we show restraint and stop in six. If we have some sort of rkc minorwood, or kickback, or whatever, I hope we are both on the same page.

 

If, against six, the stiff heart is led I suppose we make seven.

 

Btw, I am not so ready to up grade. If partner cannot respond to 1♦ I have five tricks after which they will be taking a lot of hearts. I have no idea where this hand should be played or how high. 1♦ should get us off to the right start.

 

One more comment on the natural bids over 1m-1M-2NT. Imagine that in each hand the clubs are diamonds and the diamonds are clubs. So N holds KQ/KJ62 in diamonds/clubs, and S holds A643/AT74. I still open the S hand 1♦ and I still rebid 2NT. Now we may or may not find 6♣, but it's a lot more likely if 3♣ shows clubs than if it is nmf.

[Fluffy]

I am pleased to see support for natural three level bids after 1m-1M-2NT. The other day, playing pickup, we had the auction 1♦-1♠-2NT-3♣. I figured he probably was just playing nmf, so i showed my three spades.

 

I am sorry to dissapoint you but it is standard here and I think France as well to play 3♣ enquiry (checkback, with artificial 3♦ response showing 4-3 majors) and 3x natural.

[kenberg]

So taking the OP hand, but making the clubs into diamonds and the diamonds into clubs, The Spain/France auction would begin 1♣-1♥-2NT-3♣? And then do you still find the club slam?

 

My view here is not that natural is the best possible way to play. Rather it is that unless there is some agreed upon gadgetry after the 3♣ then it just gives up to much natural value to play it as artificail.

 

It is not clear to me if you are saying yes, the gadgetry is standard in Spain, or saying that no, you just cannot get to 6♣.

[Cyberyeti]

6N is not such a bad spot particularly at pairs. I would open 2N as we play good 19-21 and this is an excellent 19.

 

The real advantage of opening 2N is that immediately you know you're bidding a slam, which you don't after a 1 opener and 2N rebid.

 

2N-3♦-3♥-5N for me is the quantitative 6.5♥/N bid rather than general pick a slam.

 

We would bid 2N-3♦-3♥(we transfer break a lot)-4♠(KC, intending to play in NT once partner doesn't break the xfer)-5♣(1/4)-5♥(signoff opposite 1)-5♠(K)-5N(rolling, almost certainly looking for minor Q as with 4 aces and a K can't have much more and AKQ/A/A/A would upgrade)-6♥(nothing else to show)-6N

[Fluffy]

So taking the OP hand, but making the clubs into diamonds and the diamonds into clubs, The Spain/France auction would begin 1♣-1♥-2NT-3♣? And then do you still find the club slam?

 

My view here is not that natural is the best possible way to play. Rather it is that unless there is some agreed upon gadgetry after the 3♣ then it just gives up to much natural value to play it as artificail.

 

It is not clear to me if you are saying yes, the gadgetry is standard in Spain, or saying that no, you just cannot get to 6♣.

 

No, I mean that 1x-1y-2NT-3♣ is artificial relay, and 3♦ is always natural.

[aguahombre]

My view here is not that natural is the best possible way to play. Rather it is that unless there is some agreed upon gadgetry after the 3♣ then it just gives up to much natural value to play it as artificail.

 

It is not clear to me if you are saying yes, the gadgetry is standard in Spain, or saying that no, you just cannot get to 6♣.

 

No, I mean that 1x-1y-2NT-3♣ is artificial relay, and 3♦ is always natural.

Which leaves Ken's view and question unanswered. Do you have the necessary continuations after 3C to get to 6♣, or would natural have been better for you?