BBF religious matrix

[diana_eva]

I didn't plan to post here at all, but for what is worth I voted "Strongly believe". I don't really care to explain why and how I got there but I can confirm I had some "spiritual feelings" as Fluffy worded it.

 

32's posts became quite disturbing to me and this is just to say I would never try to define my perception of God, or convince others how awesome it is. I just hope 32's style won't become associated with everyone else who voted "strongly bellieve".

[Vampyr]

Gradually Isidor Zwirn was excommunicated and hated by all. Neither his own Jewish people nor the Christians would accept him.

 

 

He should have joined Jews for Jesus. They would have accepted him.

[Vampyr]

32's posts became quite disturbing to me and this is just to say I would never try to define my perception of God, or convince others how awesome it is. I just hope 32's style won't become associated with everyone else who voted "strongly bellieve".

 

I think 32's posts have been disturbing to everyone. Don't worry, no one thinks he speaks for all of the believers.

[hrothgar]

I think 32's posts have been disturbing to everyone. Don't worry, no one thinks he speaks for all of the believers.

 

I'm more than half way convinced that 32519 is one of the most epic instances of internet trolling that I have ever seen

 

It would be sad to discover that he's actually just insane...

[Trinidad]

I didn't plan to post here at all, but for what is worth I voted "Strongly believe". I don't really care to explain why and how I got there but I can confirm I had some "spiritual feelings" as Fluffy worded it.

 

32's posts became quite disturbing to me and this is just to say I would never try to define my perception of God, or convince others how awesome it is. I just hope 32's style won't become associated with everyone else who voted "strongly bellieve".

No need to worry. 32 is only associated to 32. His posts don't make me worried what people think about bridge players either... I am sure there will be a '32' among soccer fans or perhaps even among atheists.

 

Rik

[mgoetze]

I'm more than half way convinced that 32519 is one of the most epic instances of internet trolling that I have ever seen

I tried to tell people not to feed the troll back on page 9 and all I have to show for it is 4 upvotes.

[BunnyGo]

Art I want to encourage you to read this book:

 

THE RABBI FROM BURBANK

Isidor Zwirn and Bob Owen

ISBN 1-57562-729-9

 

THE RABBI FROM BURBANK tells the fascinating story of Rabbi Isidor Zwirn. Here is an extract from chapter 5 of this book:

 

Once, while I was taking a class at a Jewish educational institution, the question was raised concerning the Messianic prophecies. The professor responded, “Do not attempt to study any of these prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah on your own. It’s too dangerous. Don’t study them unless you do so with a rabbi who is able to interpret them for you.”

 

Further on in chapter 5 he writes:

 

All this seemed strange to me. The coming of the Messiah is anticipated at every Jewish Passover Seder. We sing and read of the Messiah during each Sabbath and High Holy Day celebration. And the Messiah’s coming is a looked-forward-to event in the heart of every Jew. Still our educational institutions were silent on the subject. I didn’t understand.

 

Isidor Zwirn then embarked on his own independent research of the scriptures. After months he came to the conclusion that Yeshuah of the Christians is also the Messiah of the Jews. Upon revealing his conclusion to his family he immediately became an outcast. They all believed that he became a Christian. This was his response…

“No. I’m not a Christian,” I would try again. “I’m no more a Christian than Jesus was…or Peter…or Paul. They were all Jews. And I’m a Jew. The only difference is that I believe that Jesus, or Yeshuah, is the Messiah, just like the disciples did. Just like those believers in Jerusalem. And they weren’t Christians, but Jewish believers in the Messiah. It was the Gentile followers of Christ who were known as Christians.”

The Jewish community never understood and he remained an outcast.

 

When the Christian churches heard about his acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah they began inviting him to give his “testimony” on how that had happened. When he related his story of how he had come to Jesus completely on his own, they didn’t believe him. They insisted that it was absolutely necessary to accept Jesus “by faith,” which was the “regular formula.” Gradually Isidor Zwirn was excommunicated and hated by all. Neither his own Jewish people nor the Christians would accept him.

 

 

The God of the Jews is the True God. Others are an offshoot.

 

 

Excuse me, but I must finally take offense. Please don't lecture us about our religion. You may believe whatever you want, but leave us out of it.

[zasanya]

Just to have a little holiday fun...

 

See questions

 

Answers are private. Just between you and your God (or your conscience :P)

The holidays were over long ago. The fun a few days ago. Where is the moderator?

[32519]

Luke 6:22-23

"Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man."

"… For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets."

 

Luke 6:26

"Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way."

[32519]

Excuse me, but I must finally take offense. Please don't lecture us about our religion. You may believe whatever you want, but leave us out of it.

Sorry BunnyGo, but your own Jewish writings leave me no choice. It can be found in Ezekiel chapter 3:17-21

 

17 "Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth,warn them from Me.

18 "When I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.

19 "Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself.

20 "Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.

21 "However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself."

 

Jesus repeatedly referred to himself as the Son of man. Go look it up for yourself.

 

Ezekiel 18:32

"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

 

For the record: I wasn’t lecturing you or anyone else. It was some recommended reading regarding one of your Rabbi’s. Your choice is simple; read it or don’t read it.

[ArtK78]

Luke 6:22-23

"Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man."

"… For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets."

 

Luke 6:26

"Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way."

You are truly blessed.

[ArtK78]

For the record: I wasn’t lecturing you or anyone else. It was some recommended reading regarding one of your Rabbi’s. Your choice is simple; read it or don’t read it.

Classic Jewish saying: If you have two Rabbis you will get three opinions.

 

This was not one of MY Rabbis. This is someone who may have been a Rabbi and may yet be a Rabbi, but he is certainly not my Rabbi.

 

You seem to be equating a Rabbi with a Priest or Bishop or Cardinal - someone in a position to make pronouncements in the name of the faith. There is no such structure in Judaism. A Rabbi, in the strictest sense, is a teacher. And the opinion of one Rabbi is not any better than the opinion of another Rabbi. Or, in the case of the Rabbi that you have cited, his opinion is not something I care to recognize at all.

[Scarabin]

Luke 6:22-23

"Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man."

"… For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets."

 

Luke 6:26

"Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way."

 

I do not think you are justified in quoting this. As far as I can judge, anyone replying to your posts has shown you considerable courtesy, despite your posts being provocative and aggressive.

 

I am puzzled however that you have made pronouncements which I do not recognise as bible-based or in accord with the doctrine of any church or cult I have encountered. Are you a member of a recognised church or is your religion based entirely on your personal experience and beliefs?

 

I note that you criticise virtually all existing translations of the bible. Do you base this on knowledge of ancient greek and hebrew languages, and do you have access to original manuscripts as primary sources?

[Trinidad]

Come on guys, everybody is entitled to his believes and opinions. I think we should respect that.

 

But we are free to choose which opinions and believes we respectfully ignore.

 

Having said that, I think that -up to a certain point in time- this was one of the more civilized discussions between believers and non-believers. I strongly doubt that anybody got converted (in whatever direction), but I think the understanding between the two sides has increased a tiny little bit. No matter how small that is, I think that is something valuable.

 

Rik

[Fluffy]

Having said that, I think that -up to a certain point in time- this was one of the more civilized discussions between believers and non-believers. I strongly doubt that anybody got converted (in whatever direction), but I think the understanding between the two sides has increased a tiny little bit. No matter how small that is, I think that is something valuable.

Only those who truly had doubts have learnt something. Its easy to point guys on both sides who had no doubts and haven't learnt anything.

[Codo]

 

I strongly doubt that anybody got converted (in whatever direction),

 

Rik

 

And I was so sure that I convinced Mike from the advantages of being a theist instead of atheist....... Did you really need to destroy my illusions? ;)

 

But I really agree with the rest of your posting, there had been a lot of valuable input and food to thought.

[Vampyr]

Come on guys, everybody is entitled to his believes and opinions. I think we should respect that.

 

Yes, but 32's postings have become creepy and sinister.

[Trinidad]

Yes, but 32's postings have become creepy and sinister.

So what? Do you read all the postings on BBF?

 

They may be creepy, sinister or whatever, but if I don't read them they don't affect me. I'd rather spend my time reading yours or Fluffy's or Codo's or Justin's or ... well you get the point.

 

Rik

[Vampyr]

So what? Do you read all the postings on BBF?

 

They may be creepy, sinister or whatever, but if I don't read them they don't affect me. I'd rather spend my time reading yours or Fluffy's or Codo's or Justin's or ... well you get the point.

 

 

Yes, but I think that people who are following this thread will tend to read every post; even if 32 is set to ignore, he is quoted by various other posters. So I don't think it is unreasonable for a person to object to posts they find offensive or which creep them out.

[billw55]

For sure, I have learned a few things here.

 

Personally I would not call 32519's posts creepy, sinister, or aggressive. He is preaching and proselytizing, which is entirely normal for people of his like. At no time did I feel threatened or even insulted by his posts. Sure, they sound pretty weird to me, and probably sound downright insane to many of the posters here. But probably no more so than some of our posts (mikeh in particular) would sound on a forum full of worshippers.

[mikeh]

For sure, I have learned a few things here.

 

Personally I would not call 32519's posts creepy, sinister, or aggressive. He is preaching and proselytizing, which is entirely normal for people of his like. At no time did I feel threatened or even insulted by his posts. Sure, they sound pretty weird to me, and probably sound downright insane to many of the posters here. But probably no more so than some of our posts (mikeh in particular) would sound on a forum full of worshippers.

I hadn't realized that my posts, in which I refer to objectively verifiable historical facts about religion and make it clear (so I thought) that my opinions were evidence based and hence subject to ongoing re-examination were in the same category as 32's. Oh well. I don't know whether this post was a shot at me or a shot at the mentality of worshippers (or both).

 

As it happens, I agree that, with one or two notable exceptions, there have been some useful posts on both sides. Since I have already done a lot of reading on the issues canvassed here, I didn't see anything that I hadn't already seen, but I was impressed, nonetheless, by the clarity and courtesy with which many posters expressed themselves.

 

As for 32, I agree that I don't see him as sinister or aggressive. I see him as deluded, which is his problem. As for preaching, well I did that too, I suppose, so I can hardly criticize him for expressing his views. So may be there is more similarity than I had thought :D

[32519]

We have a massive irony (and tragedy) here. The world has much to thank the Jews for bringing to everyone else this incredible story: God’s ultimate purpose with creation; an invisible God becoming visible in you and me and everyone else.

 

The irony? After bringing us this incredible story, the Jews themselves have rejected the second half of the story (the New Testament).

 

The tragedy? Non-Jews have to a large extent gone and corrupted the second half of the story to fit in with what they want their followers to believe. Why? Personally I believe it has to do with power, greed, money, control of the masses, etc; fallen man unable to make it or find recognition in open society has gone and created titles, positions, roles, et el, in religious organisations in pursuit of the recognition he was unable to gain for himself. To do so that which the Jews originally wrote is misrepresented. And it won’t be fixed by the religious organisations either because they have the most to lose.

 

Here is a typical example of what you will NEVER HEAR in these organisations:

It has to do with the tithe, the 10% placed in the coffers. That is all Old Testament. Jesus himself effectively did away with the tithe in Matthew 17:24-27. Go and read it if you are so inclined. Paul himself took pride in the fact that he was never a burden to the Corinthians (2 Corinthians 12:13). He never accepted any financial assistance from the Corinthians, instead supporting himself making tents. You can read the whole passage from verse 11. He did the same in Ephesus, supplying his own needs and those of his companions through hard work (Acts 20:33-35).

 

These religious organisations will instead twist circumstances to squeeze extra money out of you for their own purposes. A favourite scripture they quote is 2 Corinthians 9:6-15. But you must read that in context. Paul was busy making a monetary collection for the starving believers in Jerusalem which had suffered a famine. When he finally delivers the collection, Luke makes no mention of it in Acts 21 because of the hostility of the Jews against Paul. In Acts 24:17 Paul himself mentions the collection before Felix.

 

Start your own pursuit of the truth. I use something called PC Study Bible distributed by BibleSoft. It contains something called an Interlinear Bible, the original Greek with the English translation of the Greek directly above it. By double-clicking on the Greek word, a Greek-English lexicon opens up on the right. This gives you what the English should be. There are 4 lexicons for you to compare with each other.

 

One final word on the tragedy: I get much of my information from this website http://bible.cc/ . In the commentaries below the parallel translations, the commentators more often than not point out the inadequacies in their own translations. So if they know that the translation is inadequate, why not fix it? It just won’t happen.

 

You think I’m joking about institutionalised religion. As early as AD 95 in Revelation 18:4 Jesus was calling on his followers to “Come out of her my people.” You are encouraged to read the whole chapter.

[mgoetze]

Yes, but I think that people who are following this thread will tend to read every post; even if 32 is set to ignore, he is quoted by various other posters.

Yeah, is it really necessary to quote several paragraphs of his to give a one-line response? I'm looking at you, BunnyGo!

[Trinidad]

Only those who truly had doubts have learnt something.

Why do you say that? It is entirely possible to be sure and still have an open mind to learn something. The learning doesn't need to mean 'learning towards converting', does it? I think many here have learned something about how the other side thinks. They may still be 100% sure that that way of thinking is wrong, but the understanding will have improved.

 

Rik

[billw55]

I hadn't realized that my posts, in which I refer to objectively verifiable historical facts about religion and make it clear (so I thought) that my opinions were evidence based and hence subject to ongoing re-examination were in the same category as 32's. Oh well. I don't know whether this post was a shot at me or a shot at the mentality of worshippers (or both).

Neither.

 

I only cited you specifically because you seem to be more or less leading the charge for the non-believers in this particular discussion. As for the worshippers, I didn't consider it a shot, rather an observation.

 

Start your own pursuit of the truth. I use something called PC Study Bible distributed by BibleSoft. It contains something called an Interlinear Bible, the original Greek with the English translation of the Greek directly above it. By double-clicking on the Greek word, a Greek-English lexicon opens up on the right. This gives you what the English should be. There are 4 lexicons for you to compare with each other.

It may surprise you to learn that some people choose to pursue truth from sources other than the Bible.