BBF religious matrix

[Cyberyeti]

Grandfather passed away today, and same as when my mother passed away or also someone close, I feel that somehow I am connected on this moments to some form of spiritual world where they are now. Its hard to explain, but lets just say that I feel very spiritual.

 

Atheists might laugh and explain why dealing with pain is one of the forms that originates religion and blablabla, but after telling all the atheist giberish most people already know, could you answer this question?:

-do you also produce something similar to this feeling when someone passes away?, no need to explain the rationality behind the feeling, just curious if you experience it or not.

 

 

Also want to know, when something like this happens, my first thoughts are always extremelly egocentric, IE: how does this affect me?, when I was young I was very ashamed of myself for thinking along those lines first, but althou I have kind of willed for, I haven't changed that way of thinking the least. I might feel better if people tell me everyone's first reaction is the same.

Condolences about your grandfather. When my mother died about 10 years ago after a 3+ year struggle with cancer I felt nothing like that, just a relief that her pain was finally over, and far more of a sense of bereavement than I ever thought I would given that I knew that day was coming for a while.

[dwar0123]

Atheists might laugh

 

But they probably won't.

 

My condolences on your loss :(

[kenberg]

Grandfather passed away today, and same as when my mother passed away or also someone close, I feel that somehow I am connected on this moments to some form of spiritual world where they are now. Its hard to explain, but lets just say that I feel very spiritual.

 

Atheists might laugh and explain why dealing with pain is one of the forms that originates religion and blablabla, but after telling all the atheist giberish most people already know, could you answer this question?:

-do you also produce something similar to this feeling when someone passes away?, no need to explain the rationality behind the feeling, just curious if you experience it or not.

 

 

Also want to know, when something like this happens, my first thoughts are always extremelly egocentric, IE: how does this affect me?, when I was young I was very ashamed of myself for thinking along those lines first, but althou I have kind of willed for, I haven't changed that way of thinking the least. I might feel better if people tell me everyone's first reaction is the same.

 

First, no, I would not laugh. My experinces have been varied.

 

My maternal grandfather dies when I was five or six. I sang about it until my mother made me stop. My maternal grandmother died in our home when I was in high school. I was sort of numb, is the way I recall it. My father's mother died near his birth, his father died when he was twelve, so of course I never knew them.

 

My mother died from cancer when I was 24. It was an awful death that I won't describe further. I came home after her death and threw up until there was nothing left inside of me. My father died when I was 38, and I was more prepared to cope. I was with him a lot until the end. It was long past the end of visiting hours, I was going out to eat and asked them if I could come back afterward. The nurse said yes but also I could just stay if I wished. I didn't grasp her meaning, and when I came back he was gone.

 

To my mind, atheism is largely an intellectual position. Of course it also is something of a way of life. But it does not in any way prevent me from spiritual reflections and feelings. I am 74, as of yesterday. Far, far too many people are not around anymore.

 

My oldeer daughter was born before my mother passed on. That was important to her. I expect your grandfather was pleased to have seen you married. We old people have come to grasp what matters.

 

The very best to you, and when it all comes down, we seek our solace where we find it.

 

 

Ken

[mikeh]

Grandfather passed away today, and same as when my mother passed away or also someone close, I feel that somehow I am connected on this moments to some form of spiritual world where they are now. Its hard to explain, but lets just say that I feel very spiritual.

 

Atheists might laugh and explain why dealing with pain is one of the forms that originates religion and blablabla, but after telling all the atheist giberish most people already know, could you answer this question?:

-do you also produce something similar to this feeling when someone passes away?, no need to explain the rationality behind the feeling, just curious if you experience it or not.

 

 

Also want to know, when something like this happens, my first thoughts are always extremelly egocentric, IE: how does this affect me?, when I was young I was very ashamed of myself for thinking along those lines first, but althou I have kind of willed for, I haven't changed that way of thinking the least. I might feel better if people tell me everyone's first reaction is the same.

I hope nobody, atheist or otherwise, would laugh at anyone's grief on such a loss.

 

I also think that the feeling you describe is a nearly universal human characteristic. I say 'nearly' because I gather there are people who lack empathy (they're called sociopaths, I think).

 

The fact that I, for one, am interested in understanding how the brain/mind functions doesn't mean that I want to emulate Spock, from Star Trek. Emotions are a huge part of what being human is, and we can't deny their importance without doing ourselves a lot of psychological harm, as I understand matters.

 

My condolences.

 

 

btw: the word is 'gibberish' with 2 'b's :D

[BunnyGo]

Grandfather passed away today, and same as when my mother passed away or also someone close, I feel that somehow I am connected on this moments to some form of spiritual world where they are now. Its hard to explain, but lets just say that I feel very spiritual.

 

Atheists might laugh and explain why dealing with pain is one of the forms that originates religion and blablabla, but after telling all the atheist giberish most people already know, could you answer this question?:

-do you also produce something similar to this feeling when someone passes away?, no need to explain the rationality behind the feeling, just curious if you experience it or not.

 

 

Also want to know, when something like this happens, my first thoughts are always extremelly egocentric, IE: how does this affect me?, when I was young I was very ashamed of myself for thinking along those lines first, but althou I have kind of willed for, I haven't changed that way of thinking the least. I might feel better if people tell me everyone's first reaction is the same.

 

My condolences for your loss.

 

Since you asked, I'll second all the previous responses that I doubt any reasonable person would laugh.

 

My grandfather died about a year ago. I do not recall any spiritual feelings at the time, but his death had been coming for over a decade, and mentally he had passed many years prior.

 

I too have experienced the "how does this affect me" feelings during times of strife, or grief. I too have felt badly about this.

[Winstonm]

Grandfather passed away today, and same as when my mother passed away or also someone close, I feel that somehow I am connected on this moments to some form of spiritual world where they are now. Its hard to explain, but lets just say that I feel very spiritual.

 

Atheists might laugh and explain why dealing with pain is one of the forms that originates religion and blablabla, but after telling all the atheist giberish most people already know, could you answer this question?:

-do you also produce something similar to this feeling when someone passes away?, no need to explain the rationality behind the feeling, just curious if you experience it or not.

 

 

Also want to know, when something like this happens, my first thoughts are always extremelly egocentric, IE: how does this affect me?, when I was young I was very ashamed of myself for thinking along those lines first, but althou I have kind of willed for, I haven't changed that way of thinking the least. I might feel better if people tell me everyone's first reaction is the same.

 

Odd that I read this post tonight when only this afternoon I was thinking about my own feelings about the loss of my wife. I would not, never have, and never will disparage someone for his manner of handling grief, including believing a religion.

 

For myself, though, it was bittersweet to think that my wife is gone, utterly and forever. I understood the need or at least the desire to think or imagine of a better outcome - it is hard to accept our lives as simply biological events that ultimately have no meaning other than that which we ourselves assign.

 

Death is never a good thing. I feel for you having to take a turn dealing with it. It does get easier with time, so take heart in that.

 

Winston

[Fluffy]

Yeah its stupid to think you would laugh at something like this, what I meant was soem sort od defy because that I wouldn't care the least if you did, without going lengthy my grandfather had the best life of anyone I ever knew and if someone deserves to go to heaven it must be him, I have some grief but I have nothing to regret.

[Fluffy]

Condolences about your grandfather. When my mother died about 10 years ago after a 3+ year struggle with cancer I felt nothing like that, just a relief that her pain was finally over, and far more of a sense of bereavement than I ever thought I would given that I knew that day was coming for a while.

Can't even begin to imagine how 3 years of stuggle can be handled, my mom had 1 month of extreme agony and I was so ripped apart that my brain has blocked all my memories from that tragic month. I can access those memories 'directly' if I want (I don't), but they are very scarcely connected to other memories in the sense that nothing will remind me of that moments, and they are not used as experience to evaluate anything.

[Cyberyeti]

Can't even begin to imagine how 3 years of stuggle can be handled, my mom had 1 month of extreme agony and I was so ripped apart that my brain has blocked all my memories from that tragic month. I can access those memories 'directly' if I want (I don't), but they are very scarcely connected to other memories in the sense that nothing will remind me of that moments, and they are not used as experience to evaluate anything.

Well much of the 3 years was not too bad. My father retired (a year or so early) immediately they got the diagnosis and they spent the good time between the chemo bouts ticking all the stuff off their to do list they could. It was only during some of the chemo and the last month or two that were really rough.

[Cthulhu D]

I disagree with the poll. The definition of tolerance is flawed. I can be both tolerant and begrudge the intolerant their views. Discussion:

 

Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.

 

In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

 

We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal. - Karl Popper.

 

I am prepared to defend a tolerant society, and it is not right to tolerate the intolerant. An incitement to intolerance, such as backers of proposition 8 in America or whatever, should be regarded as criminal.

[Trinidad]

Gonzalo, I am very sorry for your loss.

 

You are asking if we have had some kind of spiritual feeling when someone close passed away. I haven't. When most of my grandparents passed away I was still relatively young and the one feeling that I had is: "My grandfather/mother is not there anymore". As I grew older, I got more involved, the feelings of sadness and gratefulness to have had such a nice family member were deeper. But I never had any spiritual feelings.

 

The same is true when my children were born: I felt immense happiness, joy, I was proud, but nothing spiritual.

 

So, the short answer is "no". But why would I want to deny you your spiritual experience? Or laugh about your experience and your interpretation of it as something spiritual? Who am I to do that? That is your experience, your life, your religion. I will respect these experiences irrespective of the religious background. And -when I am not bothered by day to day things- I will defend your right to have these experiences and to view them as spiritual.

 

Many religious people return the favor: they respect my lack of religion and will defend my right to be non-religious. My problems with religion come when others tell me what I should experience, or what I can or can't do because their religion says so. In short: when religious people don't allow me the freedom that I allow them. But as long as people tolerate my lack of religion, I will tolerate their religion.

 

Rik

[mgoetze]

I will defend your right to have these experiences and to view them as spiritual.

I, on the other hand, will claim that you have not properly defined "spiritual" and thus I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Trinidad]

I, on the other hand, will claim that you have not properly defined "spiritual" and thus I have no idea what you're talking about.

So what? Why do you have to have an idea what he is talking about? If he is happy, proud, or humble about his "spiritual" experiences, I can share his feelings, which -in my view of the world- means that molecules in my brain are influenced by the molecules in his brain. I don't feel a need for definition, if he doesn't need to.

 

The fact that "spiritual" doesn't have much meaning for you and me doesn't mean that it can't have meaning for Gonzalo. And forcing him to define it, in terms of our value system, is exactly what we think is bad in religion: They have -throughout the ages and still now- forced their value system on us. Why would we make the same silly mistake?

 

Rik

[mgoetze]

So what? Why do you have to have an idea what he is talking about? If he is happy, proud, or humble about his "spiritual" experiences, I can share his feelings, which -in my view of the world- means that molecules in my brain are influenced by the molecules in his brain. I don't feel a need for definition, if he doesn't need to.

Oh, he can feel whatever he likes, that's fine with me - as long as he keeps it to himself. As soon as he tries to convince us of anything, however, he needs to say things that make sense if he wants them to count as arguments - especially when he is insinuating that what I might say is "atheist gibberish" at the same time:

 

but after telling all the atheist giberish most people already know, could you answer this question?:

-do you also produce something similar to this feeling when someone passes away?

How do you plan to answer such a question without knowing what's being asked?

[blackshoe]

First, just to be clear, I'm not religious. I was sort of raised Protestant, but my parents weren't really religious either, and once I was left to make my own decisions I abandoned formal religions.

 

My father passed away, at home, a couple of years ago. I was there. He was unable to care for himself, so weak he couldn't get out of bed without help, and severely embarrassed to be in that predicament. I remember going to bed the night he passed away, and tossing and turning for several hours, knowing he would die soon and wrestling with the question whether I was okay with it. I finally decided I was, and fell asleep. Dad passed about half an hour later.

 

Was this a "spiritual experience"? I don't know. I know I miss him. We had our differences, but I do wish he was still here, in good health.

[Trinidad]

-do you also produce something similar to this feeling when someone passes away?, no need to explain the rationality behind the feeling, just curious if you experience it or not.

How do you plan to answer such a question without knowing what's being asked?

I didn't think it was very difficult: I described what I felt -all feelings for which I can find a rational explanation. After that, there was nothing left to describe.

 

So, either I had no spiritual experience or Gonzalo thinks that some mixture of the feelings that I described deserves to be branded as "spiritual".

 

Furthermore, I think that you are wrong in your assumption that there must be a clear definition for everything. Look at an impressionist painting: dots and small stripes only. Is reality full of dots and stripes? Not the last time I looked. But if I would show you a Monet, you would recognize immediately what he painted. But if I asked you to point out in detail where the contours of this object are, you will not be able to pinpoint them accurately.

 

Most people, when asked what the meaning of "spiritual" is, would think that it is a vague concept, but they would know roughly in what direction they should look. And let's face it: Science is full of this kind of vagueness. And scientists can cope with that just fine.

 

Rik

[ArtK78]

So what you are saying is that spirituality is like pornography - you know it when you see it.

[Trinidad]

So what you are saying is that spirituality is like pornography - you know it when you see it.

Pretty much.

 

One difference for me between these two is that I have seen pornography. ;) (Pretty hard to avoid when you grow up in The Netherlands.)

 

Rik

[kenberg]

And I largely agree with this. When I teach mathematics, I insist to students that they really cannot expect to be able to prove that a continuous real valued function defined on a compact subset of the reals takes on a maximum value unless they know the meaning of continuous and compact. And maximum, for that matter. But that's mathematics. And even there it is not absolute. There is the old story of an analyst complaining about the lack of rigor shown by students, and a logician replying that the analyst had never proven anything with full rigor. Anyway, life is not mathematics.

 

If, that's if, we wish to construct a rigorous theory of the spiritual, whatever that would consist of, then I suppose we have to come up with a definition. But surely it is possible to have useful if not rigorously conclusive discussions of spiritual matters without beginning Definition: The word spiritual will mean....

 

Possibly such discussions will end inconclusively. So? Inconclusive does nt mean that nothing has been developed, it just means that we don't need to insist that everyone agree that our own conclusion is the only possible conclusion. When it comes to spiritual things, that sounds fine to me.

[Fluffy]

I wanted to know if thinking about souls or reincarnation or something like after a loss is innate to humans or something I learnt. Before my mother passed away it was unclear if I was religious or agnostic, but I becam a lot more religious after.

 

Nobody answered the second part question: when a tragedy happens: is your first though empathetic towards victims or egocentric towards how it matters to you?

[dwar0123]

Nobody answered the second part question: when a tragedy happens: is your first though empathetic towards victims or egocentric towards how it matters to you?

I think its empathetic but that is probably just my egocentric nature trying to make me feel better about myself.

[PassedOut]

Nobody answered the second part question: when a tragedy happens: is your first though empathetic towards victims or egocentric towards how it matters to you?

It differs from case to case.

 

My brother Ray's wife Kathy got cancer when their daughter was in elementary school, got treated right away and had six good years before the cancer returned with a vengeance. Their daughter was then in high school and it was clear that her mom would not see her graduate from high school, nor from college, would not see her be married, and would not have the opportunity to see what she made of her life. We traveled around with them some after she got sick again, and Kathy was usually upbeat, but she became quite emotional toward the end of her days -- as did all of us around her. I'm sure that all of us felt tremendous empathy for Kathy both before and after her death. But I'd be surprised if Ray and his daughter didn't think about the effect of Kathy's death upon them.

 

Of all seven of us siblings, only Ray has never been divorced. He met Kathy at the University of Wisconsin and they were devoted to each other until her death. When she died, Ray said, "That clinches it, there is no god."

 

After a few years, Ray started dating again, found another wonderful woman and is happily married again. And Ray's daughter is a fine, well-educated young woman (a redhead, like her grandmother).

 

When my father died, it was a different story altogether. He had lived a long life and had done many of the things he had set out to accomplish. We got to spend time together, and I got a chance to thank him for a number of things (mostly personal, but also for things like his service in WWII). In our last conversation, he asked me if all of his affairs were in order (they were), and told me he was ready to go. When he died shortly after that, my grief was definitely self-centered. I missed his presence on this earth and still do.

[Trinidad]

I wanted to know if thinking about souls or reincarnation or something like after a loss is innate to humans or something I learnt. Before my mother passed away it was unclear if I was religious or agnostic, but I becam a lot more religious after.

 

Nobody answered the second part question: when a tragedy happens: is your first though empathetic towards victims or egocentric towards how it matters to you?

My father died of a heart attack while in the hospital recovering just fine from a previous heart attack. According to himself, he didn't suffer during the first attack and according to the surgeon he probably didn't suffer during the second, fatal one.

 

I do not see him as a victim. His life was over, he is not there anymore (or anywhere else), he stopped existing. Why would I be empathic towards someone who doesn't exist?.

 

My first reaction was of sadness and astonishment. I called my wife for 15 minutes and cried. I never felt that this was particularly egocentric in the bad sense of the word. First you will need to cope with the tragedy before you can help others. That is a simple fact of life. But I suppose you could regard it as egocentric.

 

Then my reaction was one of empathy for my mother and brother, who were at the hospital with me. How would they be able to cope? Finally, I thought of my children. How would I explain to them that the grandfather they loved so much had died?

 

Rik

[mikeh]

I wanted to know if thinking about souls or reincarnation or something like after a loss is innate to humans or something I learnt. Before my mother passed away it was unclear if I was religious or agnostic, but I becam a lot more religious after.

 

 

I find that interesting. It strikes me that the only explanation for this would be a desire that your mother not be really 'dead': that there is an afterlife.

 

I have long thought that this wish-fulfillment is a major factor in the religious belief of most and that many of the more 'sophisticated' arguments in support of religious belief are just smokescreens or rationalizations.

 

We actually have no reason, founded in fact or observation or even logic, to think that there is anything 'out there' that even knows we exist, let alone gives a damn about us. Even if we accept some form of divine explanation for the creation of the universe, there seems to be no reason why we should think that such a divinity would in any manner provide for a life after death for any of us, let alone a heaven, a hell or purgatory.

 

No, even if there can be a logical basis for assuming that 'something' must have 'caused' the Big Bang, and that we may as well label that explanation 'GOD', that carries within it no reason to think that any human religion has 'got it right'. We like our religions because they console us with respect to death.

 

I mean no disrespect and certainly mean no criticism of anyone's reaction to personal tragedy when I say that turning to religion reflects an attempt to avoid reality. Sometimes reality sucks.

 

A long time ago, a friend told me that she used marijuana on a daily basis because it took the edge off the bad things in life. It seems to me that religion can serve the same function. And if a belief in the afterlife helps get one through the day, and doesn't cause one to hurt others, then who are we atheists to say that the believer is being an idiot?

 

I don't smoke dope, but I am definitely in favour of legalization. I don't believe in any religion, but I wouldn't support it being made illegal. As humans, we all need help dealing with the ***** that happens, and so long as our tools don't cause harm to others, then use whatever works.

 

As for Gonzalo's 2nd point, I suspect that the extent to which one's thoughts turn to oneself or to others will depend on the nature of the tragedy, the impact the tragedy can be expected to have on one's life, the relationship one had with the person concerned and so on.

 

I once had reason to fear someone very close to me was about to die, and I remember thinking very selfishly. It was odd, because one of the alternative outcomes would have been a stroke with significant quality of life issues, and I remember thinking about how horrible that would be for the person. So I was sort of thinking selfishly and unselfishly at the same time. That makes sense to me rationally, in that the dead person doesn't experience anything: there is no person 'left'. All there is are the memories held by others. But I don't think I was thinking rationally at that time: my memory is of my mind racing and dancing from fear to hope and back.

 

In short, I don't think any the less of Gonzalo because of the selfish nature of his immediate reaction. Indeed, I respect him for being aware of that nature and of questionning it.

[blackshoe]

I think we all handle grief in different ways. In the end, it's still grief.