Quantitative or Blackwood?

[dickiegera]

[hv=pc=n&w=sakt65hdaj965caq7&e=sqj7ha983dqt4ck65&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1cp1sp1np2dp2hp4n]266|200[/hv]

 

2♦ alerted as MNF

Is 4NT Quantitative or Ace asking 1430 RKC

If Quantitative, then is 4♣ Ace asking 1430 RKC.

 

Thank you

[sfi]

Is 4NT Quantitative or Ace asking 1430 RKC

If Quantitative, then is 4♣ Ace asking 1430 RKC.

 

As in so many of these situations, the answer is "depends on your partnership agreements." Given the hands and auction we have here though, I'm going to assume that:

 

- Opener bids features up the line in response to NMF.

- 2♦ is invitational or better.

- 4NT over 1NT would have been quantitative.

 

In that case, there is no reason for 4NT to be quantitative over a 2♥ bid. Responder has not ruled out spades as a potential contract. Additionally, a 4-4 heart fit might have been uncovered, making key card a viable option.

 

More generally, responder can always bid something forcing with a quantitative invitation to slam, so 4NT is much more useful as key card after NMF.

 

Whether 4♣ is best used as RKC is up to the partnership. I would tend to expect it to be a splinter, but that may vary in different circles.

 

As for the actual bidding, West has no reason at all to be bidding 4NT whatever it means. Showing diamonds in a forcing way looks much better. Note that 6♦ or 6♠ are both very good, while 6NT is 50% on a heart lead. And West has no idea what to do after any response over 4NT - even 5♠ showing a spade fit and accepting an invitation doesn't help sort out whether 6 or 7 is right.

[jillybean]

4N is peculiar no matter how it is intended.

West should be bidding out his shape - 3♣ if 2♦ was only invitational.

[steve2005]

4N is peculiar no matter how it is intended.

West should be bidding out his shape - 3♣ if 2♦ was only invitational.

4N definitely 14/30 with ♥ as trump having just magically found a 4-4 fit. lol

dont know why asking Blackwood, only possible ace is useless A♥ and you'll have no more information towards 6 or 7 ♠

 

should have bid 3♠ as forcing with 5♠ (unless you play 2♠ as forcing then do that instead) and go on from there

[Bbradley62]

Given the hands and auction we have here though, I'm going to assume that:

 

- Opener bids features up the line in response to NMF.

Is that standard in Oz? I would expect opener to be showing shape, with 2♥ simply shows four hearts and denies three spades. Showing 3-card support should have been East's first priority over NMF.

[Bbradley62]

West should be bidding out his shape - 3♣ if 2♦ was only invitational.

Since 2♦ was artificial (alerted as NMF), West has not shown his diamonds, so "bidding out his shape" should mean bidding diamonds, not clubs, over 2♥.

[Siegmund]

I expect Blackwood is the majority treatment here.

 

In my regular partnerships it is, but that is, in part, because we play that opener's 3rd bid shows min/max as well as major-suit length, sort of like Magister/Roudi rather than simple NMF - so the hands that contemplated a quantitative invite would already know now what to do.

[kenberg]

Holding four hearts and three spades, as near as I can tell there are some who bid hearts first in response to nmf, some who bid spades first. I slightly favor the heart approach but I would be uncertain if we had not discussed it. I would expect 4NT over the heart bid to be rkc.

 

That being said, even looking at the hands I am unsure what West intended 4NT to be. I would bid it as 1♦-1♠-1NT-2♣-2♥-3♦-3♠. We have now found our 5-3 spade fit. W knows E is 3-4 in ♠♥ and thus, from the club opening and the NT rebid, is 2-4 or 3-3 in the minors. Would I then just go for it? I dunno. Maybe. I am not really sure what the right road to 6 is w/o engaging in a bit of wishing. But anywaty, yes I think the 4NT in the given auction is rkc, but if I were bidding it would start as I describe and then I wouold do something.

 

 

[Phil]

In these auctions if 2N is forcing, then that can include the 19 point hands that invite. One of the reasons I hate one way NMF (and many other SAYC auctions for that matter) is that simple auctions require a lot of discussion.

 

If 2N is NF then I would expect 4N should be quant.

 

But why worry about these nuances? Just play 2 way NMF and not sweat it :)

[sfi]

Is that standard in Oz? I would expect opener to be showing shape, with 2♥ simply shows four hearts and denies three spades. Showing 3-card support should have been East's first priority over NMF.

 

I'm not sure, but since East has 3 spades and 4 hearts it seems like a valid starting point.

[kenberg]

The following just occurred to me:

 

With some, I play that 1NT-2♣-2♥-4NT is quantitative with four spades.

Playing this way, 1NT-2♣-2♥-4♣ is rkcg (Gerber key card, hearts are trump).

This may or may not be crazy, it's not exactly an everyday auction and so I have only modest experience with how it works in practice. So far, so good, as they say. I suppose the general concept would work after the NT rebid and the new minor inquiry. That is, after the 2♥, responder bids 4♣ to ask about keys for hearts or bids 4NT quantitative, which opener can convert to 5♠ if he has three spades and a minimum NT opener.

Don't send me a bill for your losses if this approach goes down in flames.

[P_Marlowe]

2H showes min, raising 2H to 3H would be forcing.

 

Given that you have a way to set trumps in a forcing manner, I would go with quantitative,

but I dont know how usefull this is, since I already know opener to be min.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[kenberg]

Does 2♥ show a minimum? That 2♦ bid could be on a hand with five spades and five diamonds, or for that matter five spades and five clubs, looking for a slam in one of the two suits. Bidding 3♥ is going to crowd things a bit. On the given layout you want to be in 6♠ but it doesn't take much adjustment to the hands to make 6♦ the winning spot. This is especially true if we upgrade opener's had to a 14 count. Now he bids 3♥ instead of 2♥? Responder does what then? Since 2♦ did not show diamonds we have to first introduce our diamond suit at the four level. And we have to hope partner realizes it's a suit rather than a cue in support of a slam try in hearts.

 

Phil will say we should play 2-way and perhaps that is so, but I still like, for these hands, 1♣-1♠-1NT-2♦-2♥-3♦-3♠. At least we now know what trump is. As responder I will be more than a little worried that the 2♥ might be on something like KQJx which uses up a lot of points to little avail, so I don't really know how to sort out whether we belong in 6♠, but knowing what trump is and having a reasonable understanding of partner's shape gives me a fair chance of getting it right.

 

 

Incidentally, if opener fits diamonds but not spades, I think 3♥ over 3♦ shows that fit as well as the heart control. Also, the 3♠ bid over 3♦ shows spades under the assumption that he can have three spades. If opener would already have bid 2♠ when he held four hearts and three spades, then I think the 3♠ over 3♦ shows something like Kx. Responder is suggesting the hand be played in a suit rather than no trump, and if the 2♥ denied three spades then we should not pass up an opportunity to suggest 4♠ may be viable in a strong 5-2 fit.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Holding four hearts and three spades, as near as I can tell there are some who bid hearts first in response to nmf, some who bid spades first.

A)

If 2H shows 4 cds ♥ and DENIES 3 cds ♠, then after 2H( as one expert I know ) :

3H = agree ♥, GF

4C! = RKC-Gerber for ♠ ( and nor for ♥ because of the available GF 3H bid )

4NT = Quantitative invite

 

Additionally, the reasoning for the 4C-jump NOT natural is that the following GF ♣ bid is available:

1C - 1S

1NT - 2D!

2H - 3C! = natural GF, cancels interest in ♠

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Many bids for ( B ) remain the same as ( A ) :

B)

If 2H shows 4 cds ♥ AND could have 3 cds ♠, then after 2H :

2S = non-forcing, 5 cds ♠, denies 4 cds ♥

3C = GF, see (A) above

3D = GF, 5s/5d

......... - 3S = 3 cds ♠

3H = GF, agree ♥

3S-jump = GF, 6s, denies 4h

3NT = GF, 5s, denies 4h

......... - 4S = Opener has both 3s and 4h

4NT = Quant invite, 5s, denies 4h

4C! = RKC-Gerber for ♠ as in (A) above

[kenberg]

I can see how a raise of 2♥ to 3♥ can be played as forcing. I had to think about it bit, but it seems to work. After 1♣-1♠1NT, responder with five spades and invitational values launches new minor. Opener replies 2♥. If responder does not have four hearts, no one cares if 3♥ is fprcing because it won't be bid. But if responder has four hearts than we are in the following situation: Responder had invitational values to start with, and now there is a known 4-4- fit. Further, either, in case A, there is a doubleton spade opposite the five card suit or, sometimes in case B, three spades opposite the five card suit. Either way this is good. In the first ase we ruff spades to gain tricks and establish the suit, in the second case we have a double fit and we have found the 4-4. Of course this doesn't guarantee that 4♥ will make but it makes it a good bet, our chances have improved considerably since we started the nmf bid, so we would hardly ever want to just invite and be turned down.

 

Without getting into the other aspects of this system, I think i will bring it up with partner that really 3♥ as invitational is not all that useful, and it could be quite useful as natural and forcing when something more than game is contemplated.

 

Thanks

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Here is a special NMF sequence ( after a 1S response to a 1-minor open ) that the Manager at OKBridge came up with quite awhile ago :

 

1m - 1S

1NT - 2om! ( NMF )

3H jump = max open ( ~14 hcp ), 4h AND 3s

 

Unfortunately, the Opener here was a minimum ( ~ 12 hcp ) 3 4 3 3 and only warrants a 2H reply.

[ggwhiz]

I have no particular take on this auction except that 3♦ (or many other bids) should create a game force and get you to key card on something useful. In that light I see 4nt quantitative with only 4 spades to be a legit agreement. Any reason to bid 4nt directly on this hand escapes me.

 

Commercial interuption: I strongly prefer Kantar 2♣ to NMF. Since by definition it is a minimum of a game invite or better there is a lot of room for opener to superaccept (or not) and even a baron type response structure to show exact shapes, (well, close) when they do.

[steve2005]

Does 2♥ show a minimum? That 2♦ bid could be on a hand with five spades and five diamonds, or for that matter five spades and five clubs, looking for a slam in one of the two suits. Bidding 3♥ is going to crowd things a bit. On the given layout you want to be in 6♠ but it doesn't take much adjustment to the hands to make 6♦ the winning spot. This is especially true if we upgrade opener's had to a 14 count. Now he bids 3♥ instead of 2♥? Responder does what then? Since 2♦ did not show diamonds we have to first introduce our diamond suit at the four level. And we have to hope partner realizes it's a suit rather than a cue in support of a slam try in hearts.

I agree, sure if you have agreed on an extended agreement of what 3 levels bids or are playing 2-way nmf.

I dont play with people wanting to have an extensive system over nmf.

So i need 3H as invitational

[lycier]

Needless to say,4nt is Quantitative.

[Fluffy]

4NT with 5530 is handy, regardless of what partner thinks it is we have the farthest from that.

[P_Marlowe]

Does 2♥ show a minimum?

<snip>

 

What does 3H instead of 2H show? Does the answer to the NMF inquiry exist?

 

The way I learned NMF, 3H showes max. and 4 hearts.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[kenberg]

What does 3H instead of 2H show? Does the answer to the NMF inquiry exist?

 

The way I learned NMF, 3H showes max. and 4 hearts.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

Two4 suggests that3♥ shows four hearts, three spades, and a max. Absent some sort of agreement like that, I think the call should not exist. The problem is that the space consuming bid will be fine if over 3♥ responder can comfortably rebid 3NT, or of course if he has hearts, but on some hands he is going to be stuck.

 

Like a lot of people, I have realized NMF has its issues, but they rarely arise and so I have not thought much about them. But I think that Two4's idea that 2♥ is simply four hearts, presumably 12-14 highs, and still the raise to 3♥ is forcing, is worth consideration. Imagine you are responder, you hold five spades, four hearts and some number of highs. The auction begins 1♣-1♠1NT and you have to choose a call. Sometimes it will be the pass/correct call of 2♥. If you contemplate launching NMF with 2♦, you have to take into account that partner will play you for invitational values and so, if he has neither four hearts nor three spades, he will bid 3NT rather than a passable 2NT. So, if you bid 2♦ you must have a decent hand. Now you bid 2♦ and partner responds 2♥. Surely your hand has just gotten a lot better. You have a 4-4 fit and the combined hands have some shape. Maybe partner will be ruffing minors in your hand, more likely he will be establishing spades either because they are 5-3 or because they are 5-2 and he can ruff a ound or two in his hand. Bottm line, you would like to know more about his hand, where his honors are and so on, but even if 3♥ is available as an invitation, it doesn't completely speak to this problem Partly it does, because a guy with 14 points is more apt to have honors where you want them simply because he has more honors. But all in all, given that my NMF call had to contemplate that partner would accept the invitation and bid 3NT on a good hand, the fact that he actually bid hearts seems to now make my previously invitational hand worthy of playing at the four level. If so, then 3♥ is forcing.

 

 

 

Alternatively, if 3♥ remains as an invitation, I still think that 2♥ by opener should simply be four hearts without specifying point count. The argument is this: If responder lacks four hearts, he will bid again and now opener with his maximum can bid 3NT. If responder has four hearts, then the hand has improved and it would be reasonable to agree that with four hearts, five spades, and enough value to have launched NMF in the first place, responder will always raise 2♥ to at least 3. My guess is that most of the time there will be ten tricks in hearts, rarely only eight.

 

 

I realize tis is a wordy answer, but as I say I have payed NMF for many years w/o much bothering to think through some of these issues. Two4's response got me to thinking a bit about this and maybhe it has interest to others as well..

 

 

While I am here, let me give you an auction form the other day.

 

 

It began 1♦-1♠-1NT]2♣-2♦-3♣

 

Opener had six diamonds and redid his diamonds over 3♣. He also had Jxx in clubs, and might have raise clubs. The winning call was 3♠ on his Kx.

They played in 4♦, making twelve tricks instead of ten when the defense started with a heart instead of a stiff club through KTxxx on the board. Ten tricks is also the limit in clubs because of the badly place AQ9x. But 4♠ rolls. Responder has to have something for his bidding and what he has is AQJxx of spades, and the ace of diamonds. There are five spades and six diamonds ready to go.

Yes opener was 2=2=6=3, responder was 5=0=3=5 and the opponents never bid hearts. It happens. Regardless, looking at the two hands, it's clear that you want to be in spades and after the 2♦ denial of a three spade holding, showing something like the Kx later seemed right to me. But of course I was a kib, seeing all four hands.