Am I violating the laws opening this 2C?

[helene_t]

I would hate to open 1♥ and hear the opps come in with 5m.

Yes but wouldn't you hate just as much to open 2♣ and hear opps bidding 5m before your second turn?

[Mbodell]

I had a partner at a NABC side regional team event who had AKQ-nineth of diamonds and out. He opened 2♣ and raised my 2♦ response to 5♦ and it was a good sac opposite the opponents making 4M (I think they make 5 but not 6). The director was called. We were not an established partnership and we did have "or dist" or something similar in the 2♣ section. The director grumbled a little, asked my partner a question (partner answered I had 9 tricks in my hand, 9 tricks is strong), said he'd consider it, and came back and let the results stand. As others have said, it is bad bridge, but it is legal in the ACBL as long as he did it because he thought he was strong, not if he did it because he wanted to preempt the opponents.

[Antrax]

Not sure what he gains by opening 2♣ and not 5♦, unless he wanted you to declare?

[Mbodell]

Not sure what he gains by opening 2♣ and not 5♦, unless he wanted you to declare?

 

If he's doing it for preemption (instead of for strong), which I suspect played into his decision, the opponents don't get the joke until the 5 level. And when his dummy comes down it can also tilt the opponents. Maybe not the most sporting of motivations. To be more charitable, it is possible partner just thought it was fun to bid that way and put down that hand as dummy.

[Zelandakh]

1. What does a "8.5 trick" 2C opening look like?

2. What does 2C 2x 4M show?

1. How about KQJTxx/AK/AQx/xx or AKJxxx/AQx/AQx/x?

2. It depends. One decent option is to play this as RKCB for the major with a self-supporting suit. Another idea is to play it as a Namyats hand, a solid suit with nothing outside or a semi-solid suit with an outside ace. Or you can just play it as a self-supporting suit missing 4 cover cards. Or it can be unlimited in strength and demand the cue bid of a side ace. In any case, you need to decide on the difference between a direct 4M and 3M followed by 4M, whether that be suit quality or strength or something else.

[mycroft]

I play "8.5 tricks *with defence* - which for us is 4 defensive tricks. I'm willing to consider AK-to-7 (even AK-to-8) 2 defensive tricks to make my 4, even though I know that it's likely not.

 

so AJTxxxxx Ax KQ A (but probably not with spades) looks about right. And yes, that's 2♣ then game. 2♣ then 3M/4m is the same hand with one less ace and AKQJxxx or AKQxxxxx.

 

Thanks MikeH, et al, for making explicit what I was saying about "as long as you play in games where 2♣ means 'our auction, stay out', you're good".

[pigpenz]

I play "8.5 tricks *with defence* - which for us is 4 defensive tricks. I'm willing to consider AK-to-7 (even AK-to-8) 2 defensive tricks to make my 4, even though I know that it's likely not.

 

so AJTxxxxx Ax KQ A (but probably not with spades) looks about right. And yes, that's 2♣ then game. 2♣ then 3M/4m is the same hand with one less ace and AKQJxxx or AKQxxxxx.

 

Thanks MikeH, et al, for making explicit what I was saying about "as long as you play in games where 2♣ means 'our auction, stay out', you're good".

I have played with people when they open two clubs you are allowed to pass their

2h 2s 3c 3d responses to 2d

[steve2005]

Yes is ok open 2♣ has at least 8.5 tricks. but why? could have only 1 defensive trick with AK♥ easily be opposite avoid by opposition.

what do you do if opponent bid 4♠/5 of a minor, possibly even before you have a chance to bid 4♥?

partner is goona double on wrong hands expecting you to have some defense.

 

opening 1♥ wont miss a game, if partner cant bid you wont make game on almost any hand he could have.

 

4♣ as a strong ♥ would describe your hand, depending on how you define it, if you play it.

[Siegmund]

I have often wondered what 8 1/2 trick hands get opened by the people who write that on their convention cards.

 

My card says 22+ or 9+, and if his hand had HQ instead of HJ, I would think 2C-then-4H was the obvious way to show it. The posted hand I might have been content with 1H-then-4H.

 

Far as I am aware, "9-trick preempt" is the standard meaning of 2C-then-4H. It is in some, but not all, of the basic bidding textbooks. I'd have to look on my shelf to see which ones.

 

I have never seen anyone say that they impose a specific defensive minimum requirement on their 2C openings, though I often see people say in threads like this one that they don't think a hand has enough defense for it.

Of course, the old idea that 1-bids ought to usually have 2 defensive tricks seems not to be popular these days either.

[jillybean]

I have some questions,

 

1. What does a "8.5 trick" 2C opening look like?

 

2. What does 2C 2x 4M show?

 

 

For us, neither exists.

 

 

I have often wondered what 8 1/2 trick hands get opened by the people who write that on their convention cards.

 

I can't remember just when I added "or 8.5 tricks" to my 2C openings on the CC but it was some time ago. I've never really

understood, have asked about it but never felt comfortable pushing for a full explanation because even the mediocre players at the

club have it on their CC. Now I can happily remove it and add NAMYATS

Thanks all :)

[rhm]

Is it really a good idea compared to opening 1♥ with this hand? You even have 3♠ so opponents are less likely to sacrifice in spades over hearts.

 

Consider partner with KQx xxx Axx xxxx and partner with xxx xxx Axx KQxx how will he know which hand is good over your 2♣...4♥ sequence?

True, but how does a 1♥ opening or NAMYATS for that matter help responder to judge better?

 

Rainer Herrmann

[hrothgar]

True, but how does a 1♥ opening or NAMYATS for that matter help responder to judge better?

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

NAMYATS openings tend to be very well defined.

[kenberg]

I have played with people when they open two clubs you are allowed to pass their

2h 2s 3c 3d responses to 2d

 

I once played against the auction 2♣-2♦-2♥- Pass. I turned to the 2♣ opener and asked if they played that as a second negative. She said that she thought so but wasn't sure.

[jillybean]

I can't remember just when I added "or 8.5 tricks" to my 2C openings on the CC but it was some time ago. I've never really

understood, have asked about it but never felt comfortable pushing for a full explanation because even the mediocre players at the

club have it on their CC. Now I can happily remove it and add NAMYATS

And remove that awful gambling 3N now that 3N becomes our 4m preempt.

[pigpenz]

I once played against the auction 2♣-2♦-2♥- Pass. I turned to the 2♣ opener and asked if they played that as a second negative. She said that she thought so but wasn't sure.

 

they way they played their positive responses it showed five card suit and points, 5+hcp

so 2♦ was negative

the main problem with their openings was if they were two suited but those type of hands shouldnt really

open two clubs even though alot of weak players do

[aguahombre]

Yes, but Ken was making a joke about the pass being a second negative.

[lexlogan]

I don't think the posted hand violates any law, or would require any special alert or disclosure in ACBL land, unless you mark your card "22+" with no other description. Personally I check the "Strong" box and give no further description, as it is impossible to summarize the various standards for a 2C opening; "Strong" just means "I'm afraid of missing game or slam if I open anything else." It's a strong hand that, in the opening bidder's judgement, is better described starting with 2C rather than 1H.

 

That said, I would open the given hand 1H and plan to rebid 4H, or 5H if necessary. There is virtually no chance 1H will be passed out, and the game rebid describes this hand well IMO. Sunday I picked up AKQ107642 -- 10 AQ97, opened 2C, and rebid 4S. (I then went brain-dead and raised partner's 5D bid to 6; 6S makes on the club finesse, with other chances; only one pair bid and made slam.) I describe the 2C-then game sequence as "game in hand with good controls but fewer high cards than expected for 2C." In other words I require 10 tricks, or better than 9.5, and something like 4+ quick tricks. Note that my hand has all the key cards needed for slam. There is still relatively little danger of being passed out at the one-level, but I can think of no way to describe such a monster after opening 1S.

[Fluffy]

Hi Ron, I don't understand your question?

 

I don't play namyats

 

Maybe this hand is a little extreme, it is actually a hand that my partner opened 4♥ and I said

at the time I would rather open 2♣. I would hate to open 1♥ and hear the opps come in with 5m.

You are admitting that the reason for 2♣ opener is to preempt opponents off 5m and IMO this means that you should not do it.

 

 

There are some 12 HCP hands posted here and there on this thread, I have read on WBF's site that an average hand is 10 milton work points, and a opening hand is a king above average hand or something like, I don't remember, but I think it could be argued that below 13 HCP has to be forbidden by that rule.

[blackshoe]

Fluffy, you have to know the — bizarre, IMO — rule in the ACBL. The General Convention Chart gives two options for a non-natural 2♣ opening: a three suiter with a minimum of 10 HCP, or "a strong hand". Nowhere in any ACBL regulation is the latter defined. If you call ACBL HQ and ask, you will be told "'strong' means whatever the player making the bid thinks it means" :blink: . I had a ruling a couple of years ago that S AKQJxxxx H Jxx D - C Jx is a legal "strong" 2♣ opener. :o B-)

[johnu]

Based on the General Convention Chart and with no other defintions around, I would have assumed that a strong hand is 15+ HCP's since under Opening Bids in the GCC, for 1NT:

 

2) FORCING 1NT OPENING BID (15+ HCPS) indicating a strong hand, balanced or unbalanced.

 

But this is the ACBL, and you know what happens to people who assume :rolleyes:

[aguahombre]

You are admitting that the reason for 2♣ opener is to preempt opponents off 5m and IMO this means that you should not do it.

Whether Fluffy's opinion above is in accordance with a jurisdiction's laws or not, it represents my opinion. The intent of the opener should be the key; when I open a hand such as AKQJXXXX - X AQXX with 2C, it is not to jerk anyone around or to represent power I don't have. It is because I might be able to find out about a particular key card or two.

 

If I opened the OP hand 2C, and then jumped to 4M, I could not honestly convince myself that I was doing it for a constructive reason and should acquiesce to an adverse ruling. If I opened the OP hand 2C and then rebid my major at the 2-level it would be because I (perhaps wrongly) wanted to treat it as a 9-trick one-suiter, not a preempt; that evaluation should be legal.

[mr1303]

I think 2C then 4H should show something like

 

KQ

AKQJxxxx

K

Kx

 

Partner should then have a good idea of how to proceed.

[lexlogan]

Incredible! I picked up another 8-card major monster today: AKx AQJ10xxx Kx -- . Although ten tricks are not certain opposite a random bust, they seem likely, so I once again opened 2C and rebid game in my major. Amusingly, I play 2H as a bust response with this partner so he played 4H in his void! Hard to believe I got two of these hands in three games this week.

[mgoetze]

n the real world there is no rule requiring [...] your partner to routinely bid 2♦.

Actually, in many of my casual partnerships, there is. ;) Of course it's not optimal, but 2♣ openings are just too rare for it to be worthwhile to do anything fancy over them.

 

(Not to say that I disagree with the rest of your post; I don't.)

[mycroft]

Heh. I ran into my first "positive" in years last week. 2♣-2♠; 3♦-3♠; 4NT-5♠; 7NT needing a 3-2 spade break or a 3-3 diamond break. In a reasonable, but not great field (containing several "4NT is the only slam try" pairs), we were the only ones in a grand, and 3 were +720 (after, I assume, 2♣-2♦; 3NT). We sort of thought it was mindless and automatic, and hoped only to beat the people who stopped in spades for some reason. Apologies to our opponents, who got a zero for no sane reason.

 

One person actually asked us how we knew responder had the ♣A. "Uh, Blackwood?"