R.U.N.T. vs The Overcall Structure

[straube]

Haven't tested this. Looking at...

 

1C

.....dbl-power double, usually a balanced hand but could be off shape

..........2D Hubert negative or even substitute your own strong club structure here

.....1N-takeout, 8-13

.....2C-takeout, 14+

.....2N-reds

.....3C-majors

.....4C-top and bottom

 

1D

.....dbl-power double, usually a balanced hand but could be off shape, puts us in a force until 1N or higher

..........1H-natural

..........1S-natural

..........1N-weak

..........2C-wide ranging

.....1N-takeout, 8-13

.....2C-natural

.....2D-takeout, 14+

.....2N-hearts and clubs

.....3D-majors

.....4D-top and bottom

 

1H

.....dbl-takeout

.....1N-natural

 

1S-

.....dbl-takeout

..........1N-lebensohl (weak heand)

..........2L-constructive

[PhilKing]

Over 1C, if you are going down this road, it's much better to play 1D as the takeout hand and 1NT as 4M5D or 6D constructive.

 

Though I prefer 1D as a takeout double (very loose) and 1D as 15-18 bal

[Phil]

 

Over 1C, if you are going down this road, it's much better to play 1D as the takeout hand and 1NT as 4M5D or 6D constructive.

 

 

Have you actually played this? Its something I pondered around 5 years ago with OS, but it felt very much "out there".

[straube]

Over 1C, if you are going down this road, it's much better to play 1D as the takeout hand and 1NT as 4M5D or 6D constructive.

 

Though I prefer 1D as a takeout double (very loose) and 1D as 15-18 bal

 

I've never played these methods so appreciate any comments from folks who have. I thought that using 1N as takeout was especially useful over their minor specifically because our advancer has a pretty good idea who has what for fit, but the opening side is disadvantaged. If you use 1D as takeout, it's no doubt safer, but you let the opponents have the 1-level for finding out whether they have a 4-4 or better major suit fit. You're saying 1D as takeout is better nonetheless?

 

Also, I do wonder about the legalities of both 1D as takeout and 1N showing diamonds...for the GCC anyway.

 

What's your take on the power double anyway? What do you think of 1D dbl creating a force through 1N? Using a cue bid as a bigger takeout hand? Thanks

[PhilKing]

Have you actually played this? Its something I pondered around 5 years ago with OS, but it felt very much "out there".

 

No, its in the draft stage. I was playing something more complicated imvolving 1M as 3-4M 5+m, but it was just too tough to remember all the agreements we need in competition

 

After we over call 1D (15-18 bal), I was thinking:

 

1H nat weak (can be 4 if desperate)

1S puppet to 1NT, then system on

1NT not sure yet, but was thinking of either: 1) 44M weak 2) 44+m weak

2C weak

2D/h/s constructive

 

I generated quite a lot of hands for the 1NT overcall, and it is break even constructively, but HUGE in terms of winning the partscore battle.

 

Within this structure, 2C+ is multi landy, the idea being to jack up the bidding to the two level on partscore battle hands while they are at an information disadvantage.

[straube]

Can you clarify? What is your 1D overcall of 1C? You've listed it as takeout of clubs and 15-18 balanced. Which is it? And what is your 1N overcall? Thanks

[Phil]

No, its in the draft stage. I was playing something more complicated imvolving 1M as 3-4M 5+m, but it was just too tough to remember all the agreements we need in competition

 

After we over call 1D (15-18 bal), I was thinking:

 

1H nat weak (can be 4)

1S puppet to 1NT, then system on

1NT not sure yet, but was thinking of either: 1) 44M weak 2) 44+m weak

2C weak

2D/h/s constructive

 

I generated quite a lot of hands for the 1NT overcall, and it is break even constructively, but HUGE in terms of winning the partscore battle.

 

Within this structure, 2C+ is multi landy, the idea being to jack up the bidding to the two level on partscore battle hands while they are at an information disadvantage.

 

What did you play your x as?

 

The auctions I loathed in OS were the 1N takeout over a short minor. Here we are jumping into a non-fit auction at the two level. I got burned on these sequences more than any others.

 

I wanted to keep it simple. Over 1♣, just play x as power to include your 15-18(+) hand, 1♦ as a lite takeout, 1N as Raptor and 2♦ as natural, but usually 6 pieces. This would keep 2♥ as ♥ + ♠.

[PhilKing]

Can you clarify? What is your 1D overcall of 1C? You've listed it as takeout of clubs and 15-18 balanced. Which is it? And what is your 1N overcall? Thanks

 

1D = 15-18 bal. 1NT = 6 diamonds or diamonds + major. Draft stage! But was just observing that flipping 1D and 1NT made sense in your structure. You keep your power double and are OK on the take-out doubles.

 

What did you play your x as?

 

The auctions I loathed in OS were the 1N takeout over a short minor. Here we are jumping into a non-fit auction at the two level. I got burned on these sequences more than any others.

 

I wanted to keep it simple. Over 1♣, just play x as power to include your 15-18(+) hand, 1♦ as a lite takeout, 1N as Raptor and 2♦ as natural, but usually 6 pieces. This would keep 2♥ as ♥ + ♠.

 

Double is basically any takeout double, any 13-14 bal, any off shape hand that we feel like, so a 4234 14 count would double. If next hand bids we play double for take-out. If next hand passes, 1level nat, 2 level as if partner opened 1NT with transfers showing 9+.

[straube]

What did you play your x as?

 

The auctions I loathed in OS were the 1N takeout over a short minor. Here we are jumping into a non-fit auction at the two level. I got burned on these sequences more than any others.

 

I wanted to keep it simple. Over 1♣, just play x as power to include your 15-18(+) hand, 1♦ as a lite takeout, 1N as Raptor and 2♦ as natural, but usually 6 pieces. This would keep 2♥ as ♥ + ♠.

 

What did you do with a strong takeout hand? My understanding of the power double is that it's nice if it implies 2+ of opponent's suit so that partner may pass...but he can't do that if you can have say a 14 count with shortness in their suit.

 

On a separate note, I'd like to advocate for the idea of having a power double placing the partnership in a force through a certain level (perhaps 1N). Double then basically says that I have enough strength to conduct a fit-finding auction through that point. This way your strong balanced hand can look for a 4-4 major suit fit at the 1-level.

[straube]

1D = 15-18 bal. 1NT = 6 diamonds or diamonds + major. Draft stage! But was just observing that flipping 1D and 1NT made sense in your structure.

 

 

 

Double is basically any takeout double, any 13-14 bal, any off shape hand that we feel like, so a 4234 14 count would double. If next hand bids we play double for take-out. If next hand passes, 1level nat, 2 level as if partner opened 1NT with transfers showing 9+.

 

I would worry about safety doubling with 13-14 balanced. Say it goes 1C to me and I double with Axxx Ax Kxx Qxxx. Great if we find a fit, but no certainty of that and I'm not strong enough to want to play 1N. OTOH, you do have an advantage in that you are starting the conversation low so you may add your chances for finding a fit together with chances that 1N will be right. Does your double start a force through any certain point? In my view it should or advancer will have to jump to show values even when he doesn't have much of a preference for his suit. I mean, you don't want him jumping to 2H here with 4 hearts and a 9 count.

[PhilKing]

Does your double start a force through any certain point? In my view it should or advancer will have to jump to show values even when he doesn't have much of a preference for his suit. I mean, you don't want him jumping to 2H here with 4 hearts and a 9 count.

 

We wing it at the one level and can stop in 1D. Pulling say, 1H to 1S can be on four and does not promise the earth, though we may be strong (a la Polish). 1M can be up to 9 with a four card suit. When we have 14 opposite say 7, it's much better for us if the second opponent bids (then double is take out and suits 7-10 5+ and responders suit is the cue), but my experience is that they usually do bid.

 

At the two level when 3rd seat passes, 2C is a 1 round force ostensibly 10+, 2D+ transfer 9+ 5+.

[Phil]

What did you do with a strong takeout hand? My understanding of the power double is that it's nice if it implies 2+ of opponent's suit so that partner may pass...but he can't do that if you can have say a 14 count with shortness in their suit.

 

Somewhere on Jeff Goldsmith's site is a summary of how you handle awkward hands in OS. My recollection is that power doubles needed to be stronger the shorter we are in RHO's suit. So a double could be made on most 15-16 hands with a doubleton but you needed incremental extras with a stiff or void, since partner will convert 1m x'd with four good ones.

[Phil]

 

Also, I do wonder about the legalities of both 1D as takeout and 1N showing diamonds...for the GCC anyway.

 

 

 

If (1♣) - 1♦ promises at least 3 diamonds, I would think that falls under the definition of natural.

 

I don't know about 1N showing diamonds. Someone that can access the GCC can tell quickly.

[PhilKing]

If (1♣) - 1♦ promises at least 3 diamonds, I would think that falls under the definition of natural.

 

I don't know about 1N showing diamonds. Someone that can access the GCC can tell quickly.

 

In UK you are allowed any defence if 1C is 2+. 1NT is legal regardless because promises an anchor suit. 1D illegal against 3+ club.

[Zelandakh]

For GCC, the 1NT overcall has to be natural, 3-suited or show at least 5-4 in 2 suits with a known suit by my reading of the chart. The solution would be to take Phil's proposal, remove the 6+ diamond hands from 1NT and play 2♦ as an IJO. Now 1NT becomes Raptor with diamonds as the anchor suit:

 

(1♣)

X = power

1♦ = weak takeout

1M = natural

1NT = 5+ diamonds, 4M

2♣ = strong takeout

 

Another idea might be to play the 1♦ overcall as either natural (and sound) or a light takeout. Then 1NT (or 2♣) can be the stronger takeout without losing anything else.

 

(1♣)

X = power

1♦ = weak takeout; or natural and sound

1M = natural

1NT = strong takeout

 

 

As for the 2-suiters and WJOs, you can always play around with my structure if you keep the cue free:

 

(1m)

2m = wjo in a major; or spades + om, strong

jump om = wjo

2♥ = both majors, weak

2♠ = spades + om, weak

2NT = hearts + om, weak/strong (normal UNT)

3m = both majors, strong

 

Unfortunately the cue bid is not GCC-legal since it does not promise a known suit. I cannot see an easy way of getting around this without either giving up the benefits of getting the known 2-suiters in immediately or of losing a wjo. Probably simplest would be to lose the wjo in diamonds and play Michaels:

 

(1♣)

2♣ = both majors, weak/strong (normal Michaels)

2♦ = spades and diamonds, weak

2M = wjo

2NT = hearts + diamonds, weak/strong (normal UNT)

3♣ = spades + diamonds, strong

 

 

Put that together and you end up with:

 

(1♣)

X = power

1♦ = weak takeout; or natural and sound

1M = natural

1NT = strong takeout

2♣ = both majors, weak/strong (normal Michaels)

2♦ = spades and diamonds, weak

2M = wjo

2NT = hearts + diamonds, weak/strong (normal UNT)

3♣ = spades + diamonds, strong

 

Does this work?

[Phil]

For GCC, the 1NT overcall has to be natural, 3-suited or show at least 5-4 in 2 suits with a known suit by my reading of the chart. The solution would be to take Phil's proposal, remove the 6+ diamond hands from 1NT and play 2♦ as an IJO. Now 1NT becomes Raptor with diamonds as the anchor suit:

 

(1♣)

X = power

1♦ = weak takeout

1M = natural

1NT = 5+ diamonds, 4M

2♣ = strong takeout

 

(snip)

 

Does this work?

 

This does. I think I might try it with my OS partner the next time we play.

[straube]

Looks pretty attractive to me. There might be a little duplication in that many hands will qualify for both a 1N and 1D overcall. Plus we're missing out on a weak diamond overcall (obviously) and giving up Michaels. OTOH, at such a low level, X as power makes a lot of sense to me. I'm guessing that the Hubert Negative should be used...or you could just use your usual strong club structure.

[straube]

Looked at a few hands and not wild about this. I miss the diamond overcalls. How about...

 

dbl-takeout shape, could be as light as 8 hcps

1D-natural, expect 4-cd suits more often than 4M overcalls

1M-natural

1N-15-17

2C-strong hand (18+ or so)

.....2D-asking

.....2M-natural

.....2N-natural 18-20 or so

2D-weak two or perhaps Michaels

2M-weak two

 

What I like about this is that dbl is always takeout shape. It is not confused with other strong meanings. It is also very frequent...much more so than the strong meanings. If the dbl hand bids again, he shows extra and is further clarifying his shape.

 

Yeah, not comfortable with the 18-20 2N. Looking for workarounds.

[Zelandakh]

Looked at a few hands and not wild about this. I miss the diamond overcalls. How about...

I would miss them too, which is why I looked around for alternatives and suggested the two-way 1♦ overcall. If you want Double to be power and still have 2 calls for takeout then you have to give up something though.

 

 

dbl-takeout shape, could be as light as 8 hcps

Now we are moving away from a Power Double set-up again. Indeed this structure reminds me somewhat of Culbertson, with the cue showing a big hand. And this time I cannot see the attraction. We get to Double with a trick less than normal, not really causing the opponents too much trouble and helping them when they declare (which they will most of the time) and lose out on either a wjo in diamonds or hands with both majors, both of which do cause the opponents problems and are more likely to result in our stealing the contract.

 

If I was going to go along this route, with 2♣ as a general strong hand, then I think I would probably look at something like X = diamonds or majors and 1♦ as a limited take-out. But I am not exactly wild about that either. I think you are overstimating the upside and underestimating the downside of this.

[kenrexford]

Looked at a few hands and not wild about this. I miss the diamond overcalls. How about...

 

dbl-takeout shape, could be as light as 8 hcps

1D-natural, expect 4-cd suits more often than 4M overcalls

1M-natural

1N-15-17

2C-strong hand (18+ or so)

.....2D-asking

.....2M-natural

.....2N-natural 18-20 or so

2D-weak two or perhaps Michaels

2M-weak two

 

What I like about this is that dbl is always takeout shape. It is not confused with other strong meanings. It is also very frequent...much more so than the strong meanings. If the dbl hand bids again, he shows extra and is further clarifying his shape.

 

Yeah, not comfortable with the 18-20 2N. Looking for workarounds.

 

At the takeout point, what you seem to be doing is saving the strong balanced 1NT overcall and then splitting the takeouts between a wide-ranging double (8-17 HCP) and a power 2♣ cuebid (any shape), with apparently a forfeit of the jump overcall in diamonds for a Flannery-esque 2♦.

 

This seems like a lot of the same problems with the Overcall Structure that I noticed earlier, but worse.

 

If you get past the inability to drop the quick description of the balanced intermediatre (15-17) and trust this to be worked out, especially after a 1♣ opening with Herbert Negs (the easiest auctio by far), you should notice some principles.

 

 

1A. The 8-17 range is unwieldy. Sure, it is "safer" when you have the light range, but you are prone to interference by the opponents when you have intermediate or strong hands.

 

1B. Split ranges are mnore easily handled. RUNT offers that, especially the Son-of-RUNT version. X = 0-4 (could skip that one) or 11-18 or 23+; 1NT = 5-10 or 19-22. These ranges could be tweaked, obviously, to maybe 1NT = 8-11 or 17-19, X = 12-16 or 20+ (or 0-4?). But, split-ranging is less prone to opposition meddling.

 

2. While a weaker 1NT takeout seems more dangerous in the sense of possible penalties, it is also more powerful in its impact on the opposition. The net effect is that the 1NT overcall has a tendency to be penalized less than you might think. When you steal opposition space, they need that double for constructive purposes; with less space stealing, the oppositiuon can dedicate an asset to penalty doubling more easily. Consider, for example, how many play negative doubles after 1NT-(3x)-? but penalty after 1NT-(2x)-? Or, a penalty double in a 1x-(2y)-2x-(3y)-? unless "y" is one under "x." Thus, bidding higher is often safer than bidding lower, if that makes any sense. (Another example might be that a trap pass of a two-level overcall is easy, but you get nervous trap passing a three-level overcall.)

[straube]

Not sure I like my last proposal but let me try to defend it at least a little.

 

What I like is that the double is frequent and does not blur hand types. It's always takeout shape. I wasn't thinking to double with Axxx Kxx xxx Jxx. Eight would be with something more like AJxx xxx Kxxxx x.

With a hand like that, we want to compete, right? But we don't want to overemphasize diamonds either.

 

Frequency is a big deal. I mean, try to tabulate the frequency for a takeout double with a power double. The power double is less frequent.

 

The other thing is that a power double is mixed as well. It has to handle balanced strong NT hands along with big single-suit hands...which means that partner can't reliably pass with QJxx.

 

I'm not wild about bidding up to 2N with only 18-20 balanced, but I sampled 100 hands (where I dealt myself 8+ hcps) and only had to use this bid once. So I'm thinking that 1C (dbl) P 1H P (1N) could even be used to show a bigger takeout double. Or maybe not. It is rather high.

 

I wasn't thinking of the cue bid here as takeout or.... I was thinking of it as wanting to announce a good hand that didn't have takeout double shape.