Penalty or take out ?

[120248]

Hi !

Suppose opps opened with 4♥

Is X for take out or penalty ?

ty

[SteveMoe]

4♥-Double is generally played as takeout.

[barmar]

Most play that doubles of opening bids up to 4♥ are takeout.

 

Whether 4♠-X is takeout or penalty varies, so you should discuss it with partner; many play that it's penalty, and they use 4NT as the takeout bid. The logic of this is that takeout will push you to the 5 level anyway, so there's nothing lost (whereas over 4♥ you can hope to play 4♠). The con of this is that partner can't convert the takeout bid to penalty; for this reason, many experts recommend playing doubles of all opening suit bids as takeout, but at higher levels partner should be more inclined to leave it in if he doesn't have good shape.

 

The last few months of the ACBL Bulletin have a series of articles by Larry Cohen on different types of doubles. You can find them at http://larryco.com/BridgeArticles/ArticleDetails.aspx?articleID=553

[lalldonn]

Most play that doubles of opening bids up to 4♥ are takeout.

 

Whether 4♠-X is takeout or penalty varies, so you should discuss it with partner; many play that it's penalty, and they use 4NT as the takeout bid. The logic of this is that takeout will push you to the 5 level anyway, so there's nothing lost (whereas over 4♥ you can hope to play 4♠). The con of this is that partner can't convert the takeout bid to penalty; for this reason, many experts recommend playing doubles of all opening suit bids as takeout, but at higher levels partner should be more inclined to leave it in if he doesn't have good shape.

 

The last few months of the ACBL Bulletin have a series of articles by Larry Cohen on different types of doubles. You can find them at http://larryco.com/BridgeArticles/ArticleDetails.aspx?articleID=553

There are at least four cons to playing a double of 4♠ is penalty. One is that, as you said, you can't convert a takeout double any more, which is your most common action. A second is that you have more hands with short spades than long spades. A third is that responder can't bid 4NT over the takeout double any more to scramble for his best fit, which it's hard to live without at such a high level. And a fourth is if you play 4NT as three-suited takeout you no longer have it available for two-suited takeout, which is another bid that proves very useful and common. It's for all those reasons that most experts have played doubles of 4♠ as takeout for some time now.

[ggwhiz]

There are at least four cons to playing a double of 4♠ is penalty. One is that, as you said, you can't convert a takeout double any more, which is your most common action. A second is that you have more hands with short spades than long spades. A third is that responder can't bid 4NT over the takeout double any more to scramble for his best fit, which it's hard to live without at such a high level. And a fourth is if you play 4NT as three-suited takeout you no longer have it available for two-suited takeout, which is another bid that proves very useful and common. It's for all those reasons that most experts have played doubles of 4♠ as takeout for some time now.

 

For us, a double of a high level pre-empt like this is take-out with the corollory that you leave it in unless you are reasonably hopeful of a plus on offence. Those hands can be small but shapely, otherwise go for a plus on partners power.

[lycier]

For me,4♥-X is takeout,but 4♠-x is penalty as a general rule.

[P_Marlowe]

X of 4H is for T/O

X of 4S is optional, 4NT is the true / serious T/O

 

In general even if for T/O, the doubler needs to expect, that

partner converts with nothing.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

I do not think anyone plays a double of a 4♠ opening as simply penalty any more. Whether you play it as a pure takeout with 4NT for 2-suiters or as a more balanced takeout (values) with 4NT as more extreme is something that I do not think is completely settled even in Expert circles. At some point a hand becomes too strong to simply pass so there is always a line to be drawn here. Another suggestion I have put forward (and tried to get some feedback on) is: X = takeout or minors; 4NT = clubs or diamonds or non-slammy with hearts; 5m = minor plus hearts; 5♥ = slam try with hearts. I suspect the loss of a 4NT scramble over the Double is too big to compensate for getting the 2-suiters in like this but it is at least an interesting basis for theorising.

 

One thing you should discuss with a regular partner is whether an immediate 5♥ overcall shows extras or not. If it does not then the sequence (4♠) - 4NT - 5♣; 5♥ does show extras. Unfortunately this fails if there is any advance other than 5♣. For this reason, having the direct 5♥ shows extras is theoretically good (imho) but there is a strong danger of forgetting this so for most pairs it is probably better to stick with the more traditionla approach.