4441 23-count

[han]

Thanks for your answers.

[Bbradley62]

Is the third choice what you meant it to be?

[Phil]

4441 with short clubs is the toughest. When we have a club suit partner can make a 1♦ 'noise' with many weak hands. After 1♦ partner doesn't have that choice.

 

So 2♣ for me. I'm guessing from the choices we don't play Kokish but 2♥ is still an awkward rebid with this shape. I don't mind 2♠ but a 2N rebid will lead to the simplest auction.

[mikeh]

I voted for 2♣ then 2N. One reason is that if partner looks for a major, we have found a home, and if he doesn't then either he has clubs sufficiently controlled or the opps may choose to lead a major rather than clubs because we tend to lead the major after the opps have a quantitative notrump sequence, with no apparent interest in the majors.

[JLOGIC]

2c then 2n for me also. I really dislike doing it but its just too good for 1d IMO, you have to guess later because you can't catch up and 1d ap cold for game is not insignificant, its hard for them to have a balance when we have both majors and so many points. At least this way we will get to our games and find our major suit fits. we will often be screwed on slam hands though obv.

[fromageGB]

Missing options : none of the above, or a variety of other bids to chose from.

So no vote from me, I open 2♦ artificial. Without agreements, 2♣ then 2NT.

[benlessard]

1D followed by 2nt, At 23 with no stiff K or Q I believe its slighlty too strong for 1D. Anything less I prefer 1D

[Cyberyeti]

Close between 1♦ and 2♣->2N. Would bnot be unhappy with either choice (or particularly happy).

[FM75]

None of the options offered.

 

http://pigpen.org.uk/BBO/2d.php

 

2♥ rebid by partner allows us to specify 16-19 with 2♠ rebid.

20-23 2N,3♣,3♦,3♥ shows points and location of singleton.

 

But this is systemic, with strong club system. You might or might not be able to wire that into your system. That said, 16-23 any 4441 comes up so infrequently that you might need the equivalent of reaching the finals of the Bermuda Bowl to see it in the course of an arbitrary competition. :)

 

Above frequency was from memory on 16-23. Dramatically overstates frequency of 23+ and 4441.

 

 

About 6 hands out of 100,000 will be 23+ and any 4441, if you are dealer. You can get some additional chances, if you are not, and earlier players pass. I suspect less than 2 in 10,000. Half of the hands, you will hold 23, a tad over 25% 24.

 

Put this:

 

condition shape(north, any 4441) and hcp(north)>=23

action frequency "points" (hcp(north), 23, 40)

into:

http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/dealer/dealer.php

Edited December 12, 2012 by FM75

[Fluffy]

obviously show balanced strong, the only doubt is how strong, with both majors and good very good honnors I will go or the upper range 24-25, even better if it was 24+ and partner would allow me to go crazy if he shows a major

[PhilKing]

A short sim came out strongly in favour of 2♣ and show 24+ bal when compared to the other popular actions.

 

I say that speaking as a 1♦ opener (although in my system partner almost never passes 1♦ for obscure reasons).

 

Believe or don't believe (if not, do one yourself). I don't have the exact details, but 1♦ was catastrophic unless you routinely respond on balanced filth and treating it as 22-23 was OK for games but caused too many missed slams.

[lycier]

IMO,after I open 2♣ and resonder bid 2♦,I will jump bid 4♣ or 4♦ to show 4441 or 4414 shapes.

[han]

Say you bid 2C - 2D - 2NT, showing a balanced 22-23. Partner bids 3C, some sort of puppet stayman. You bid 3NT, showing exactly 4-4 in the majors. Now partner bids 4C, which is the only way to set hearts as trump (4D would show spades, 4H would show clubs, 4S would show diamonds). Would you allow partner to stop in 4H, or would you bid on?

[gnasher]

Can I bid 4♦ as a slam try? If so, I'll do that, then let him sign off in 4♥. Even ♥A and ♠J doesn't make slam that special, and it will be tricky to find out whether he has his honours in the right place.

[mikeh]

I assume that 2♦ carried no positive inferences. He could still have a bust (tho not a yarb, since he could have passed 2N).

 

I bid 4♦, surely the only encouraging noise I have. He bids 4♥ and the issues are whether we have 5 level safety and whether moving beyond game will get us to a good slam enough times to risk whatever 5 level issues there are, plus whatever bad slams we may reach.

 

I think we are screwed. And the reason is the club suit. Partner will overvalue the club K and undervalue a holding such as xxx. He expects us to hold at least 2 clubs.

 

 

I can just see: 2♣ 2♦ 2N 3♣ 3N 4♣ 4♦ 4♥ 4♠ 4N by him as no club control but willing to cooperate, and such a sequence makes bidding slam easy.

 

But how common is it to play 4N with this meaning? It is for me, but I confess that I doubt that many of my partners would see it that way at the table.

 

So I make my try and surrender.

[aguahombre]

If we don't have a big club, or Kokish, or 23-25 4X1 as a possibility for a 2D opening (We have that)---I will dog it with 1D sticking with the theory that others will screw it up and/or the 4x1 will play badly as it usually does.

[Fluffy]

I would not let partner play 4♥ if he transfered, stayman is not as good, but I still fail to see more than 2 losers, 5 level is never totally safe but this one must be pretty good.

[wank]

if i felt i was so good for my 22-3 bal that i needed to push onto the 5 level once i found a major fit, i would rather just show more in the first place so i could retire happily in 4M.

 

this hand doesn't even have much of a wrong-siding issue from 2D-2M showing whatever it shows.

 

the only time we're creating a problem by opening 2D is when partner has about 8 points and clubs (or no way to find our diamond fit) and propels us to a non-making 6nt.