jahol Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 My previous contribution to loooong thinking topic initiated a quite interesting discussion. How about this case? Both vulnerable, I got AKQJ109x--x--Ax--Qxx and was not too surprised when my righty opened the bidding with 4H call. My first bid was not a big problem - 4 spades. LHO bid 5H in a tempo and this call was passed back to me. In such situations, I follow Larry's LTT with as few exceptions as possible, so that I checked all facts, estimated number of tricks on both lines, positive and negative corrections etc. etc. and seeing no reasonable alternative, decided to double (you may not agree, but you will hardly persuade me that I was wrong here). This thinking took some (fairly long) time, but since my first decision, I was only making a check of, had been to double, I did not see any ethic problem. As soon as my partner (a person of very ethical soul) passed the bid 5H, I was absolutely sure, he would pass my double. So, I doubled finally and then....my partner started hesitating and... bid 5 spades, passed. His hand was xxxx--xx--Kxxx--K10x. After a successful finesse of CJ, I made 5 spades just, five hearts being one down only (two dia and one club, my LHO with 5 clubs being void in spades). TD was not called, but the opponents were rather suspicious regarding our bidding. My partner apologized to everybody, he was just sleeping after 5H call and understood his pass being fatal mistake immediately after making the call. A bit surprisingly, our opponents had no big problem with his call, but they did not like my double at all. Since I know that (in accordance with LTT) my partner surely WOULD have bid 5S immediately being present mentally at the table, I did not see any problem. Do you think that I am right, or we made some kind of ethical collaps? Jahol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlPurple Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 When there are long suits the LAW needs positive adjustments. Your only possible negative adjustment is for Qxx in clubs. That could take a trick in defence but be worth nothing in the play of the hand, for example, if partner has Jx opposite, or even if partner has xx and the opps guess wrong (ok the LAW does not assume wrong guesses, but let's be practical). On this particular hand the LAW seems to work perfectly though - there are 21 total trumps and 21 total tricks. The 5 level doesn't always belong to the opponents after all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 I would double with your hand too, so please, don't let it be illegal or unethical. But when I double 5♥, perhpas unlike you, my double is for takeout, promising the willingness to hear partner bid 5♠ (after my vulnerable 4♠ overcall. (for those of you who haven't read my meaning of doubles, my doubles are always for takeout until we have found a fit... there is some definition of fit, but bidding 4♠ here doesnot meet that definition). When i double at the five level, although takeout, I am never surprised if partner chooses to leave it in. And in fact, would think most times he may so choose. 5♥X is not so bad, if you start diamond ace and get your diamond ruff. Surely you will win 2♦, 1♦ruff and with club jack on side, 1♣ for sure and maybe two. There is a reasonable question if your partner should bid 5♠ or not, with or without your double. In the direct seat, he has two hearts, and you may lose 2♥ off the top plus a minor suit ace when 5♥ has no play. So pass is not horrible, ESPECIALLY IF HE EXPECTS you to reopen when short in hearts and some decent values (in other words, when 4♠ was bid more to make than to get them out of 4♥). Over 5♥x, he can apply the LOTT and decide defend or bid on. I think with four spades, bid on is indicated, but note, if ♣JACK is elsewhere 5♠ is down the drain while 5♥ still has no play on the ♦ ruff (if you start diamond ACE). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlPurple Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Given that RHO has opened 4♥ I hardly expect to get a diamond ruff, he will probably be able to ruff high in front, and may even be able to then draw trumps, cross to the ace of clubs and discard clubs on the next two diamonds. And if one of them is void in spades then 5♥ made. Their hands like this: [hv=w=sxxhkxdqjxxxcajxx&e=shaqjtxxxxdxxcxxx]266|100|[/hv] or [hv=w=sxxhkxdqjxxxcajxx&e=shaqjtxxxxdxxcxxx]266|100|[/hv] though the 4♥ opening on the 2nd one looks highly unlikely, but here he can ruff 3rd diamond high, trumps drawn in 2 rounds, spade ruff and other 2 losers away on diamonds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlPurple Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 How about this layout? Bidding looks a bit more reasonable. [hv=w=shkxdqjxxxcaxxxxx&e=sxxhaqjxxxxxdxxcx]266|100|[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Gee Earl, I wish I was as wonderful as you to figure out that oppoenent has void or singleton or doubleton in diamonds.... especially when I am lookng at two and parnter only has three (of course we don't know how many partner has when we bid). Seriously, showing a hand (or three) does little good. I could just as easily show others, in fact I will, these are all four heart opening bids made on bbo on one day three months ago. I don't show the auction, but I imagine you can see who the 4♥ opening bidder was in each case. [hv=d=n&v=a&n=skt97hj872daq86c7&w=s8643htdj9ckjt932&e=sj52h65dkt75caq86&s=saqhakq943d432c54]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv][hv=d=n&v=a&n=skt97hj872daq86c7&w=s8643htdj9ckjt932&e=sj52h65dkt75caq86&s=saqhakq943d432c54]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv][hv=d=n&v=a&n=skt97hj872daq86c7&w=s8643htdj9ckjt932&e=sj52h65dkt75caq86&s=saqhakq943d432c54]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv][hv=d=n&v=a&n=skt97hj872daq86c7&w=s8643htdj9ckjt932&e=sj52h65dkt75caq86&s=saqhakq943d432c54]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv][hv=d=n&v=a&n=skt97hj872daq86c7&w=s8643htdj9ckjt932&e=sj52h65dkt75caq86&s=saqhakq943d432c54]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv][hv=d=n&v=a&n=skt97hj872daq86c7&w=s8643htdj9ckjt932&e=sj52h65dkt75caq86&s=saqhakq943d432c54]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv][hv=d=n&v=a&n=skt97hj872daq86c7&w=s8643htdj9ckjt932&e=sj52h65dkt75caq86&s=saqhakq943d432c54]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv][hv=d=n&v=a&n=skt97hj872daq86c7&w=s8643htdj9ckjt932&e=sj52h65dkt75caq86&s=saqhakq943d432c54]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv][hv=d=n&v=a&n=skt97hj872daq86c7&w=s8643htdj9ckjt932&e=sj52h65dkt75caq86&s=saqhakq943d432c54]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv][hv=d=n&v=a&n=skt97hj872daq86c7&w=s8643htdj9ckjt932&e=sj52h65dkt75caq86&s=saqhakq943d432c54]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv][hv=d=n&v=a&n=skt97hj872daq86c7&w=s8643htdj9ckjt932&e=sj52h65dkt75caq86&s=saqhakq943d432c54]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv][hv=d=n&v=a&n=skt97hj872daq86c7&w=s8643htdj9ckjt932&e=sj52h65dkt75caq86&s=saqhakq943d432c54]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv][hv=d=n&v=a&n=skt97hj872daq86c7&w=s8643htdj9ckjt932&e=sj52h65dkt75caq86&s=saqhakq943d432c54]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv][hv=d=n&v=a&n=skt97hj872daq86c7&w=s8643htdj9ckjt932&e=sj52h65dkt75caq86&s=saqhakq943d432c54]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlPurple Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 partner has 4 diamonds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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