Undiciplined 1NT openings.

[han]

Assuming that you frequently open 1NT with 5-card majors, or with 2-4-2-5 shape.. how about 2-5-2-4 shape, i.e. with a five-card major and a 4-card minor?

 

I have never done this, but I can see reasons to open this way, either mandatory, or with some suitable hands. I would think that this might only be a good idea when playing a strong 1NT opening. Any thoughts?

[mike777]

I would suggest not to do it with 14-16 or 15-17. Have never tried it with weaker but would think not. It is very antifield and seems to go below avg more often than above.

[the hog]

Perfectly sensible with the correct hand, playing both weak and strong NTs. How else are you going to show this sort of hand?

 

AQ

Qxxxx

AQ

Kxxx

 

Regarding the "anti field" comment made by Mike above, in a strong field I would expect many to open this 1N. Anyway what is wrong with making an anti field bid anywayif you are right?

 

Playing a weak NT you should strive to open 1N as often as possible, after all that is the reason you are playing a wnt.

[pbleighton]

I agree with Ron - if it looks like NT and smells like NT, open NT.

 

Peter

[pclayton]

Normally I don't like it because 5-4 contracts are suit-oriented. And if I do, I'd like to have a rebid problem for opening 1N (ironically, 4♠ / 5♥ qualifies, even though its BOTH majors).

 

But there's always exceptions to the rule. Ron's hand has 2/3rd of the points stuffed into the doubletons makes sense.

[mike777]

ya, that would be an exception, I thought poster meant almost always open 1nt with that shape, not exceptions.

[dogsbreath]

having played weak NT a lot, i sympatise with Ron's idea about 5-4 ok when pts in the short suits .. in practice tho i feel that they often dont play well in 1nt, even if it looks right. I'd probably still do it tho ..but only cos it's better than a pass :)

Rgds Dog..

[nikos59]

I have never opened 1NT with a 5-card major and I consider myself

very lucky to play in a country where a pickup partner is

100% likely not to open one (the last guy to do so went

on the guillotine). Hence...

 

To say the truth, I recently had two partners (one a travelling

American whom I met thru BBO, another was a Dutch guy)

who did open an abominable 1NT facing me (with a

5card major) and in both cases we were rewarded by a

fat zero. So, Kaplan's advice still holds true, I guess.

 

n.

[joker_gib]

I agree that Ron's hand smells NT but in my partnership, I only open NT when I can have rebid problem and very rarely (never say never ! :angry: ) with 5 cards major.

[luke warm]

To say the truth, I recently had two partners (one a travelling

American whom I met thru BBO, another was a Dutch guy)

who did open an abominable 1NT facing me (with a

5card major) and in both cases we were rewarded by a

fat zero. So, Kaplan's advice still holds true, I guess.

 

n.

do you remember the two hands?

[Gerben47]

Nikos was I the Dutch guy?

I like to open 1NT with 5♥332, for example:

 

[hv=s=skxhajxxxdkjxcajx]133|100|[/hv]

 

I don't like my options if partner responds 1♠ to my 1♥. Opening 1NT also complicates the auction for opponents holding spades.

 

As it does not seem to make a lot of difference, in MP it might be best to go with the field and take your medicine if partner responds 1♠.

 

With 5♠332 I open 1♠ as the advantages listed above are gone.

 

An interesting example came up yesterday. Playing 10-13 NT I got a hand that was too weak for a 1-bid, except 1NT :)

http://online.bridgebase.com/cgi-bin/history.pl?...02447206-142349

 

Just in case you are wondering, we play that a 2NT response to Stayman shows 5♥.

[Free]

It depends on what system I'm playing. If I have a relayscheme to ask for the entire shape, and I can't show 5-4s, then I know I might get into trouble (except if partner has passed already). So then I won't do it.

 

However, in a pickup partnership I'm certain I'd open 1NT with 5422's if the hand is right for it. The hand Ron suggests is indeed a 1NT opener. Hands in 3rd seat without ♠s are also better opened 1NT imo (even 1-4-4-4), and especially with weak NT! The preemptive effect on this is just great :)

[Gerben47]

In my relay scheme the only 5-4 hands included are 2425 and 2452. Besides, this hand (2524) is still 1♥ and rebid 2♦. NT can be bid later on this hand as there is no rebid problem.

[nikos59]

To Gerben: No, I was referring to f2f partners. Your example

hand poses a problem for the French system but a 2C rebid

almost always works fine.

 

To luke: I dont remember the hands exactly but in the

first case I bid 3NT immediately with a 2-3-4-4 hand

and 10 points. 3NT made on the nose, with the field

scoring easy 420-450s.

 

In the second case, I passed, holding 6 points

and 4-2-4-3. Pard had five spades and all the

field scored 170s and 140s while we only

scored 120.

 

Nikos

[tlgoodwin]

In my (limited) experience, the principal losses resulting from opening 1NT holding a five-card major come when responder would raise a 1M opening bid to 2M (on three-card support), and then accept a game try -- but has no reason to bid at all over a 1NT opening bid. Something like xx K10x Axxx 9xxx opposite a 14-16 or 15-17 1NT. You might play this hand in 1NT (1NT-P) at one table, vs. 4H (1H-2H-game try-4H) at the other. That suggests a rule like, "Don't open a strong 1NT when holding a five-card major if you would try for game after opening 1M and getting a single raise."

 

A similar rule might apply to weak notrumps, although then the concern is a responding hand that would limit-raise a major-suit opening bid, but pass over a weak-notrump opening bid. Because a weak-notrump type would generally pass after opening 1M and getting a limit raise, this isn't such a serious problem.

 

All of this assumes IMPs, not matchpoints. As indicated in some of the above posts, 140 vs. 120 (and the like) is a far greater problem at matchpoints.

 

T.L.Goodwin

[pclayton]

Possible but doubtful that xx, KTx, Axxx, 9xxx is going to make a game across from a 15-17 NT with 5♥. Typical hand: Axx, AJxxx, xx, AKx (and this is generous).

 

The real danger hand is when you have 4 of a major and not enough for a game try; or choose that passing 1N is a nice MP spot.

[EarlPurple]

I used to play 5 card majors and weak NT but:

 

1♥ 1♠ 1NT was wide-range

1M 2mi 2NT was weak.

 

Latter treatment is fairly non-standard but works well. 1M 2mi 3NT is used for 15-16 hands and bigger hands can find a stronger bid by bidding a 3-card suit if necessary.

 

The problem of opening 1NT is that it can be hard to compete later if the opps intervene because it is not so easy to find a fit when you have not yet shown a suit. Opening 1NT as often as possible is great when the opps don't come in over it. Especially non-vulnerable as the old rule of "you can't score badly in 1NT undoubled non-vulnerable" applies. (If you go as many as 3 off the opps probably have game, 2 off and they probably have a part-score that beats the +100 they score. I am, of course, assuming that our own side doesn't have a game somewhere!).

 

This was a long time ago, and was mainly matchpoints.

[Guest Jlall]

open 1N whenever 5332 and in range (including upgrades...many 17s are not in range). Im glad to live in a country where people are not so narrowminded to say that doing X with hand type Y is "abominable" when a significant amount of experts do just that. I follow hamman's advice "if you have a good 5 card major its a source of tricks in NT, if you have a weak 5 card major you may want to avoid the 8 card fit there anyways." Funny, but can be quite true.

[the hog]

Nikos I think you are way off the mark here. Modern bidding theory suggests that opening 1N with balanced hands makes for far easier auctions. The Italians have been doing this for some time now. B&D open NTs with 5332 M hands, as do Lauria Versace. A "garbage 11-14 NT including all balanced hands is also part of Buratti and Lanzarotti's Nightmare system.

[mike777]

I think these posts are off topic...

 

The question was should 5224 with a 5 card major and 4 card minor be opened all the time or almost always with 1nt...not 5332 hands or hands with just hcp in short suits.

[the hog]

I think these posts are off topic...

 

The question was should 5224 with a 5 card major and 4 card minor be opened all the time or almost always with 1nt...not 5332 hands or hands with just hcp in short suits.

So? Threads often morph.

[civill]

[hv=s=sakhxxxxxdakckxxx]133|100|[/hv]

 

How about this hand in natural based system?

[nikos59]

To Ron:

 

My humble opinion is that *you* are way off the mark

when you say merely that

"opening 1N with balanced hands makes for far easier auctions"

while omitting the all-important second part of the

sentence:

"provided you are able and willing to invest the time and effort needed

to integrate in your system all the devices that become

necessary"

 

The Italians may very well (I dont know, but I happily take

your word) open 1NT with 5M332, but surely they have

a lot of checks and balances. Does the average player?

 

In my humble opinion, it makes for far easier auctions

if you know that 1NT can never ever have a 5card major.

The unsuitable 5M332's are such a tiny minority (1% of

hands?) that it just do not pay to dilute your system

to cater for the 1%. Bridge is a game of odds. I prefer

to aim the 99% of the cases.

 

I may very well be wrong, but I need to see some proofs.

 

Nikos

[the hog]

""opening 1N with balanced hands makes for far easier auctions"

while omitting the all-important second part of the

sentence:

"provided you are able and willing to invest the time and effort needed

to integrate in your system all the devices that become

necessary"

 

Nikos your above comment goes without saying. I direct my comments to those that I think are prepared to invest time and effort, else i can't be bothered. I have seen your posts on rgb and know you are not a schlemiel.

 

Incidentally I DO believe opening all 5332 shapes with 1N makes constructive bidding far easier, even for beginners; and "yes" do take my word for it, I have played against B&D and L&V though not F&N, and they ALL open 1N with balanced hands.

[whereagles]

If the alternatives are not attractive, I have absolutely no problem of opening 1NT on shapes as 5422, 5M332, 4441, 5M422 or (shock horror) 5431. Usually the singleton will be AKQ, but even that isn't iron-cast B)

 

In one of my last tournaments I held, as dealer and NV,

 

♠ Kxxxx

♥ xx

♦ KQxx

♣ xx

 

I could open this with a weak 2♠, but with such a broken suit I preferred a 9-11 NT. Ok, so I only have 8... Big deal :P