JonnyQuest Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 [hv=pc=n&s=sajt9hkt972daq9ct&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=1c]133|200[/hv] If you choose double (too strong for an overcall), what is the upper limit of your overcall strength? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manudude03 Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 I double because I have takeout shape. I don't plan on rebidding hearts. Nice pips, but not enough to make it too strong for an overcall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 It's a common question. I double, not because it is too strong to overcall - I just prefer it. But the vote tends to be about 2 to 1 in favour of the overcall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 Surely not too strong. And a close to perfect shape for a take out... But I rate my hand as strong enough for 1 ♥ and a possible later double of 1 NT or 2♣. Despite this choice I guess it is much more common to double now and forget about the hearts if partner does not ask for your longest major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_clown Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 I overcall because I feel strong enough to double any number of clubs when they come back to me. With a weaker hand I would probably double right away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 1H. What to do with 54 in the majors is an endless discussion subject, althoughthe war got decided long ago in favour of an overcall (5hearts 4 spades ...there is some more merrit in X, bt nevertheless). With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 [hv=pc=n&s=sajt9hkt972daq9ct&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=1c]133|200[/hv] If you choose double (too strong for an overcall), what is the upper limit of your overcall strength? More to the point is what's a minimum hand too strong to overcall. For me it's at least a king better than this or 3 more tricks with better shape/suit quality. I prefer the overcall cause it's too annoying when pard has to respond in diamonds with 3 (or 2 good) hearts. I can't bid over that without seriously overstating my strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 If I'm doubling, I'm not bidding hearts after. This is nowhere near "too strong to overcall" in my style. If I bid hearts, I'm comfortable doubling clubs next time around. If I double, I put a heart in with my diamonds and bid it like the (very) good 14 4=4=4=1 it is. My advisor bids hearts and doubles later. Since one of my rules is "listen to one or two people who are (much) better than you but bid your style, and ignore everyone else", when I ask and get that answer, that's what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted November 28, 2012 Report Share Posted November 28, 2012 I used to double with these hands but I've overcalled this shape for at least the last five years, due to opinions on the forums. Hard to explain the reasons but one is I don't care much for my next call when partner bids a 1N response to double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jogs Posted November 28, 2012 Report Share Posted November 28, 2012 1♥. If the bidding stays low willing to double next. 1♣ - 1♥ - 2♣ - p p - X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted November 28, 2012 Report Share Posted November 28, 2012 Overcalling 1♥ is not all sweetness and light. Take the sequence (1♣)-1♥-)2/3♣)-p-(p)-x. Now if double showed four spades, that would be brilliant, but it doesn't. We could be 3631 or 3541 or 3532, so partner has can't safely bid spades on a four-card suit. The way I play it, overcalling hearts almost denies four spades. Also, my overcall then double sequence shows greater high-card power or four diamonds, since I am doubling first with this hand type. For me, the overcall drops the ball when it comes to spade contracts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted November 28, 2012 Report Share Posted November 28, 2012 You are not convincing. There is no reason for partner not to bid spades with four of them even if we frequently have a 3541 or 3631. It is possible to win 4/3 fits, especially if you can ruff with the short hand.... :)To double in later with x54y seems quite pointless too. You may bid your second suit cheaply- something that is much more difficult with 45xy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted November 28, 2012 Report Share Posted November 28, 2012 You are not convincing. There is no reason for partner not to bid spades with four of them even if we frequently have a 3541 or 3631. It is possible to win 4/3 fits, especially if you can ruff with the short hand.... :)To double in later with x54y seems quite pointless too. You may bid your second suit cheaply- something that is much more difficult with 45xy.... Didn't mean partner couldn't bid a four carder. He can with strong pips, but in my style he is aware that I will almost never have four spades, so he does it as a matter of judgment. And if you want to reopen with two or 3 diamonds with a 3541 16 count (absurd, obviously) then feel free! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted November 28, 2012 Report Share Posted November 28, 2012 The way I play it, overcalling hearts almost denies four spades. Also, my overcall then double sequence shows greater high-card power or four diamonds, since I am doubling first with this hand type. And for the overcallers, doubling almost denies a five card major, at least at the one level. I understand your point about finding a 4-4 spade fit (which I might be able to do anyway), but how can you sensibly locate a 5-3 heart fit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted November 28, 2012 Report Share Posted November 28, 2012 The hand is not even remotely close to double then hearts. The suit is too weak and the hand is way too weak. I bid 1♥. I intend to double at my next turn if feasible. Yes, I miss some 4-4 spade fits. But I find my 5-3 heart fits which double doesn't. If we have enough for game, we can often find spades, and if we don't have game, then we aren't usually losing much (if anything) for playing the 5-3. An important point that I don't think anyone has yet mentioned is that LHO may be about to bid 1N or 2♣. There are many hands on which we need to be competing in hearts on which partner can't bid over either 2♣ or 1N if we start with double. Some of these include 4 card spade suits, some 4-4 in the majors, and a host have 3 card heart support. Then we add Phil's point about our discomfort if it is partner who bids 1N, and it seems to me that the double causes far more problems than does the straightforward 1♥ overcall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted November 28, 2012 Report Share Posted November 28, 2012 I double. This has nothing to do with the strength or the shape. With other hands with this shape I would overcall 1♥, possibly doubling (or bidding 2♠) later. But since the heart suit is actually the weakest of my 3 suits, I will double. Rik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted November 28, 2012 Report Share Posted November 28, 2012 1♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_20686 Posted November 29, 2012 Report Share Posted November 29, 2012 The reason to overcall is that most of your gain from getting into these auctions comes when you have a big fit and partner can immediately bounce the auction. I think this hand is strong enough to overcall then double at reasonable levels, and that gives me the best of both worlds. If the hand was weaker, such that I would not consider another action, I think dble is ok. Its still not my style, but since I overcall a lot at the on level, and dble only with sound(ish values) a bid that gets across my strength is clearly quite valuable. If you make it a little stronger still then I think 1H followed by double is clearly better. If you make it less than (say) 12 HCP then 1H then pass is clearly better. in the 12-14 ish range its close whether to double or to bid, as you will often only make one action. I prefer to bid 1H but its close. Hands that can take two actions (14-17) should definitely bid 1H first. V strong hands should dble then bid hearts, but you are far away from that here. Think prime 17-20 ish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 I need one more double from someone who appreciates the spade suit in order to fulfill my prediction of a two to one vote in favour of 1♥. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve2005 Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 More to the point is what's a minimum hand too strong to overcall. For me it's at least a king better than this or 3 more tricks with better shape/suit quality. I prefer the overcall cause it's too annoying when pard has to respond in diamonds with 3 (or 2 good) hearts. I can't bid over that without seriously overstating my strength.yes i go with overcall, dont want annoying ♦ response especially at matchpointscan partner introduce a 4 card spade suit with 1♠? that could be nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 If you choose double (too strong for an overcall), what is the upper limit of your overcall strength?I am not sure what the question really means. If is specifically asking those who would double with this exact hand (because they think it is too strong for an overcall) how weaker they would be with this 45xx shape to not double, but call something else, I don't think we have heard an answer. I would have thought that anyone who would double with this hand would also double with a weaker hand of this shape if they were too strong to pass. If it is just asking "on this hand do you double or bid hearts", then that has been answered by a 2 to 1 majority. If it is asking "forget this hand, but what is the boundary line between an immediate overcall and doubling followed by a bid", then a typical 18+ seems to be the boundary, or a useful 17. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 excellent thread and comments by all. I see the current vote is 30-16 for 1h. Here is an email comment from a multi world champion in response: "I understand your argument, but with this specific shape, I think the combined chance of finding a spade fit more easily, and a D fit make DBL the percentage choice. Also, with a stiff club more chance of a preemptive raise, so more reason to make one descriptive bid for your hand" responding to this email: "Hi guys…..this topic is actually near and dear to my heart. I used to struggle with 4-5 or 5-4 in the majors and often made take-out doubles in that situation, especially with 3 cards in the opposite minor, regardless of strength. However, in the not too distant past, some guy named (edit;famous wc player) told me he always overcalls the major. And his reasoning was quite compelling. Simply put, partner is a lot more likely to have 3 cards opposite your 5 than have 4 cards opposite your 4. Alex could run a computer simulation to see what the exact odds are, but I am sure it is significant. So when you double, you will lose the most common fit you are likely to have, the 5-3 in your major. And it doesn’t really matter how strong you are. Even with a weak hand worth only 1 bid. Of course with a little bit more than a minimum, you can even overcall and perhaps show the other suit later (via bidding it or doubling), giving you a chance to still discover a 4-4 fit in the other major. But if you double initially, you just cannot recover to find a 5-3 fit (unless you are so strong you can double and originate, of course)." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Molyb Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 I need one more double from someone who appreciates the spade suit in order to fulfill my prediction of a two to one vote in favour of 1♥.denied I bid one 1♥ and double later to show this exact shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 denied I bid one 1♥ and double later to show this exact shape.I agree with the plan, but it is wrong to state that it shows this exact shape. 3=6=3=1, 3=5=4=1 are just as consistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balrog49 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 I used to double with these hands but I've overcalled this shape for at least the last five years, due to opinions on the forums. Hard to explain the reasons but one is I don't care much for my next call when partner bids a 1N response to double.Same here. My partners have convinced me to overcall with these hands and so far, the results have been as good or better than double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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