After MSS

[wyman]

1N 2S (15-17, mss)

3n 4s (max no minor, spade shortness)

5n

 

Gib interpreted this as GSF-S and bid 6s on a void, which is silly of course. Sorry I haven't posted a hand. I can link it (http://bit.ly/WJQkK5) but I'm on my phone so I'm limited.

 

Incidentally, one of the problems playing bbo on iPhone is the inability to preview what gib think your putative bids mean (as by hovering over bids w a mouse before you make them).

[Hanoi5]

Why didn't you bid 6NT?

[Stephen Tu]

I guess one issue is that most people play that only 2nt-3d are proper responses to MSS, so followups after the weird 3nt response are likely poorly defined/debugged. You'd probably do better with the auction a level lower.

 

Don't know if GIB knows generic 5nt pick a slam convention except on a few specific sequences (1nt-2d-2h-5nt perhaps?), perhaps it would have worked better opposite a 5s call.

[Bbradley62]

Incidentally, one of the problems playing bbo on iPhone is the inability to preview what gib think your putative bids mean (as by hovering over bids w a mouse before you make them).

And, apparently, the meaning of your bids don't make it to myhands, either.

[Bbradley62]

1N 2S (15-17, mss)

3n 4s (max no minor, spade shortness)

5n

I guess one issue is that most people play that only 2nt-3d are proper responses to MSS, so followups after the weird 3nt response are likely poorly defined/debugged.

GIB does not recognize 3N as showing a max; the description GIB provides (at other tables) for 3N is exactly the same as the description of 2N, and includes 15-17HCP. Perhaps it is a suggestion of this thread that 3N should show 17HCP, and 2N should be limited to 15-16HCP?

 

Would 3M in response to 2♠ show a 5-card major and deny a 4-card minor? If so, the descriptions of 2N and 3N rebids should include "2-4H; 2-4S" rather than 2-5.

[wyman]

Why didn't you bid 6NT?

 

Tilt, probably. But that's really not the point of this thread.

 

I guess one issue is that most people play that only 2nt-3d are proper responses to MSS, so followups after the weird 3nt response are likely poorly defined/debugged. You'd probably do better with the auction a level lower.

 

Don't know if GIB knows generic 5nt pick a slam convention except on a few specific sequences (1nt-2d-2h-5nt perhaps?), perhaps it would have worked better opposite a 5s call.

 

Not being familiar with this treatment is my problem, I think. I guess MSS is either slammish or a drop, never an invite? If I asked an opp what 2S meant, I'd expect to hear this, and I expect it from GIB as well.

 

Re: 5N, it's pretty stupid to think that it's GSF in a suit in which GIB has shown shortness when I've shown a balanced hand. Playing on my computer (so I could see what 5N meant), this happened again the other day:

[hv=lin=pn|wyman,~~M53746,~~M53744,~~M53745|st||md|1S2AH7QAD46AC267TA%2CS4579H3489JKD25CK%2CS3QKH6TD3JKC389JQ%2C|rh||ah|Board%2011|sv|o|mb|1C|an|Minor%20suit%20opening%20--%203%2B%20C%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%201|mb|2H|an|Aggressive%20weak%20jump%20overcall%20--%206%2B%20H%3B%209-%20HCP%3B%203%2B%20total%20points%20|mb|3H|an|Cue%3A%20limit%20raise%20or%20better%20--%204%2B%20C%3B%2012%2B%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N%20|mb|p|mb|4H|an|4%2B%20C%3B%2021-%20HCP%3B%2017-22%20total%20points%3B%20forci|mb|p|mb|5C|an|4%2B%20C%3B%2012-13%20total%20points%20|mb|p|mb|6C|an|4%2B%20C%3B%2021-%20HCP%3B%2021-22%20total%20points|mb|p|mb|p|mb|p|pc|H8|pc|HT|pc|H5|pc|H7|pc|CQ|pc|C4|pc|CA|pc|CK|pc|CT|pc|H3|pc|C8|pc|C5|pc|SA|pc|S5|pc|S3|pc|S8|pc|S2|pc|S9|pc|SK|pc|S6|pc|SQ|pc|ST|pc|D4|pc|S7|pc|H6|pc|H2|pc|HA|pc|HJ|pc|HQ|pc|H9|pc|C3|pc|D7|pc|D3|pc|D9|pc|DA|pc|D5|pc|D6|pc|D2|pc|DK|pc|DT|pc|DJ|pc|D8|pc|C2|pc|S4|pc|C6|pc|HK|pc|C9|pc|SJ|pc|CJ|pc|DQ|pc|C7|pc|H4| ]400|300|[/hv]

I can't check now, but I believe that after 3H, 5N would have been GSF-H. This can't possibly be right.

 

And, apparently, the meaning of your bids don't make it to myhands, either.

Yeah, it would be nice to keep them around, if only for debugging later.

[Stephen Tu]

 

Re: 5N, it's pretty stupid to think that it's GSF in a suit in which GIB has shown shortness when I've shown a balanced hand.

 

Certainly, but that requires common sense reasoning which humans have but computers don't. GIB can only follow the rules it has, and apparently the default rule for 5nt is GSF unless overridden by rules covering more specific sequences, so anything uncommon is likely to be interpreted as GSF, and really all 5nt bids are uncommon so unlikely to have been debugged.

 

The 5nt after the cue-raise certainly should be GSF clubs, but the odds of it being the right bid are practically nil since opener would have to have something along the lines of AK - AKQxx Qxxxxx to justify it, and how often does one get dealt that followed by heart overcall followed by cue raise?

 

It's not the right bid with the hand you actually held, of course.

 

So there's likely lots of sequences where GIB is thinking 5nt is GSF for the wrong suit but it hardly matters since it's practically never appropriate for anyone to bid 5nt anyway.

[wyman]

GIB can only follow the rules it has

 

Yes; I'm just pointing out that this is a rule that the GIB programmers might want to revisit, since it causes undesirable behavior.

[georgi]

Thanks for reporting this.

 

Several changes done according to this.

 

Tweaked 2N/3N explanations so 2N showing min, 3N showing max.

 

GIB will recognize ( but won't bid of course itself ) 4N/5N jumps over 2♠ or 5N jump after 4♠. They will be just maxes + stopper after cuebid in Splinter major.

 

Also fixed underlying bug where 4N over 2♠ used to be blackwood(♠).

[Stephen Tu]

Tweaked 2N/3N explanations so 2N showing min, 3N showing max.

 

 

I think GIB should recognize 3nt as showing max no minor, but never choose to bid 3nt itself (so 2nt show 15-17 no 4cd minor).

I think only allowed response by GIB should be 2nt/3c/3d. This is fairly std way to play MSS, allow partner to bid 3c weak both minors to play low partial, also to show shortness in major below 3nt so can play 3nt rather than 4nt if not going to slam with wastage in major suit, it is silly to play in 4nt rather than 3nt because opener 1 extra HCP.

 

It is same as regular stayman, only 3 response allow, GIB doesn't bid 1nt-2c-2nt ever.

 

Just has to recognize 3nt response as something sensible since human may not know convention well.

[lalldonn]

I think 2NT min and 3NT max is pretty stupid. If you aren't bidding a minor you should always bid 2NT so he can keep describing his hand like showing shortness in a major. What if you are a max with a major unstopped? I object to this change.

[georgi]

I think GIB should recognize 3nt as showing max no minor, but never choose to bid 3nt itself (so 2nt show 15-17 no 4cd minor).

I think only allowed response by GIB should be 2nt/3c/3d. This is fairly std way to play MSS, allow partner to bid 3c weak both minors to play low partial, also to show shortness in major below 3nt so can play 3nt rather than 4nt if not going to slam with wastage in major suit, it is silly to play in 4nt rather than 3nt because opener 1 extra HCP.

 

It is same as regular stayman, only 3 response allow, GIB doesn't bid 1nt-2c-2nt ever.

 

Just has to recognize 3nt response as something sensible since human may not know convention well.

 

That's the plan of the change, but anyway at the moment based on the 10+TP 3minor over 2NT is still GF (for current version of GIB). GIB wont likely pass this. So after 3minor South-human could decide to pass, but South-GIB(supposedly North-GIB opener 1NT) would continue to 3NT.