ATB - missed grand over undiscussed multi

[Jinksy]

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(couldn't see how to alert bids in the diagram. 2D is multi, I think usual weak major or strong balanced. Double is 13-15 balanced or 19+)

 

Playing in a relatively new partnership with a P around my level - we've got quite an involved system elsewhere, but all we'd discussed over the multi is the meaning of the initial X, and takeout Xes of their paradox bids.

 

So this was the auction - please assign the blame.

 

(eta)Actually I’ll come out as S since I think this is a bit unfair on my P – if my jump to 6 had hit small Ds opposite, we’d be having quite a different conversation. So let’s just make this a request to Assess the Bidding (which I’m now guessing was the original meaning of the acronym…)

[Codo]

North should bid 3 Spades and south should not blast.

 

But I would not reach 7 anyway, I cannot find out that the queen of spades is no problem...

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I dont like the 6S bid, for all you know, North may be broke, and you will

go down in 6S, when even 4S may not be cold, sometimes partner will only have

3 cards in spades.

 

As far as I understood some play 3D in this seq. as forcing.

 

I am not sure Codos' suggested 3S bid has to show 19+: having 15, you may want to

find out, if partner has around 10, so that 4S has play.

 

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[billw55]

IMO missing a grand is rarely sufficient cause for assigning blame, and this deal is no exception.

[PhilKing]

North's Two Spade bid shows FIVE - he passes with any balanced hand, even a yarborough - -180 or -280 may be your best spot in the circustances.

 

I don't see that it is in any way an underbid playing standard multi defence - partner only passes with the 13-15 balanced type in which case two is often the limit.

 

South should bid 3♥ now, then 4♦ by North should lead to a straightforward auction.

[Cyberyeti]

North's Two Spade bid shows FIVE - he passes with any balanced hand, even a yarborough - -180 or -280 may be your best spot in the circustances.

 

I don't see that it is in any way an underbid playing standard multi defence - partner only passes with the 13-15 balanced type in which case two is often the limit.

 

South should bid 3♥ now, then 4♦ by North should lead to a straightforward auction.

I've never heard of the 2♠ bid promising 5, you can look very very silly playing many of the normal defences when you pass 2♦x on a balanced 6 and catch partner with a 4414 21 count.

 

We would bid:

 

(2♦)-X-2♠ (we might bid 3♠ in which case it's really easy, but assume we don't)

3♥-4♦(cue and extras, with nothing more than a ♦ card would just bid 4♠)

4N(KC♠)-5♦(1/4)

5♥(Q?)-5♠(no)

5N(still interested in grand, have you got a 5th spade)-6♦(yes and K♦)

7♠

[ArtK78]

If you are going to leap to 6♠ anyway, you might as well bid RKCB and then show responder that you have all of the key cards. Responder might have a source of tricks and be able to bid the grand.

 

And, if, as you say, the 2♠ bid shows 5 spades (a highly questionable idea that works tremendously well on this hand), then you can ask for diamond controls after RKCB by bidding 6♦. With the KQ of diamonds (the response to RKCB already revealed the presence of the ♦A) responder bids 6NT (if I remember correctly), after which the doubler can bid 7♠ (he can count 13 tricks in spades, not in notrump).

 

I admit that the 6♦ ask works very nicely here, and this approach could miss 7♠ if responder had, say, the ♦K and ♥K but no ♦Q. However, responder might bid 7♠ anyway given that opener showed all of the keycards and the ♠Q (or the equivalent) by trying for a grand slam over the response to RKCB.

[ArtK78]

I've never heard of the 2♠ bid promising 5, you can look very very silly playing many of the normal defences when you pass 2♦x on a balanced 6 and catch partner with a 4414 21 count.

 

We would bid:

 

(2♦)-X-2♠ (we might bid 3♠ in which case it's really easy, but assume we don't)

3♥-4♦(cue and extras, with nothing more than a ♦ card would just bid 4♠)

4N(KC♠)-5♦(1/4)

5♥(Q?)-5♠(no)

5N(still interested in grand, have you got a 5th spade)-6♦(yes and K♦)

7♠

The fifth spade and the ♦K together are not enough. You cannot count a 13th trick.

 

The ♦Q provides the 13th trick. A 3-3 club break or the ♣J would also provide the 13th trick.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

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You need a previously discussed Defense over Multi .

 

One such directly over 2D is:

X = 5+ in either major, opening+ values

2H! = 5+ ♣, Opening+

2S! = 5+ ♦, opening+

etc.

 

( 2D! ) - X! - ( p ) - ??

 

Now after Responder passes, Advancer can use Lebensohl ( 2NT! to show Both Majors or neither Major , or invite in 1 Major ) or :

 

2M = 0 - 6 hcp

"slow" 3M ( going thru Leb2NT ) = 7 - 8

direct 3M-jump = 9 - 10+

 

So, Advancer here should bid 3S-jump

 

X - 3S

4C ( must be an advance cue for ♠, since 2H! immediately would have shown ♣-suit )

..... - 4D ( cue )

4NT - 5D ( 1 key )

5H ( ♠-Q ask ) - 6D ( yes or extra ♠-length + ♦K )

6H ( 2nd K-ask ) - ?? not sure if ♦Q justifies going to the grand .

[mikeh]

I've never heard of the 2♠ bid promising 5, you can look very very silly playing many of the normal defences when you pass 2♦x on a balanced 6 and catch partner with a 4414 21 count.

 

We would bid:

 

(2♦)-X-2♠ (we might bid 3♠ in which case it's really easy, but assume we don't)

3♥-4♦(cue and extras, with nothing more than a ♦ card would just bid 4♠)

4N(KC♠)-5♦(1/4)

5♥(Q?)-5♠(no)

5N(still interested in grand, have you got a 5th spade)-6♦(yes and K♦)

7♠

I don't believe your suggested sequence.

 

How does opener show a hand with hearts that is too strong for a heart overcall? Since when did advancer's 2♠ response eliminate spades as opener's major?

 

I would expect the vast majority of players to take your proposed 3♥ bid as natural rather than as a spade raise, absent specific agreement.....and such agreement should cater in some fashion to doubler having hearts.

 

 

As for the actual hand, I would choose 3♠ as advancer, tho this is definitely a minimum for the auction. That would allow doubler to keycard. I hate keycarding with xx in a non-cue'd suit but I just don't see any alternative. And partner's 3♠ call identifies opener's suit as hearts, so I can assume that partner's values are probably in diamonds so I am going to be reasonably safe.

 

I would not let the missing Q concern me, since partner will often hold 5+ spades for the jump. In fact, the lack of the Q suggests he holds 5+ and values outside. I still don't know if I'd bid grand. I think it would depend on how things were at the table and what 'heat' I was in at the time.

 

IOW, I don't feel there is any real 'blame' here. I do think that the 2♠ bid was a trifle too conservative, even for me, and that the 6♠ call was insane...but even there, I sympathize with the lack of any obvious way to do anything but blast.

[Cyberyeti]

The fifth spade and the ♦K together are not enough. You cannot count a 13th trick.

 

The ♦Q provides the 13th trick. A 3-3 club break or the ♣J would also provide the 13th trick.

You are right, in fact I suspect 7♠ will be bid direct over 5N as having only bid 2♠, when partner bids 5N, the 5th trump and 2 tricks beyond the ace already shown should be enough.

[Jinksy]

North's Two Spade bid shows FIVE - he passes with any balanced hand, even a yarborough - -180 or -280 may be your best spot in the circustances.

 

I don't see that it is in any way an underbid playing standard multi defence - partner only passes with the 13-15 balanced type in which case two is often the limit.

 

South should bid 3♥ now, then 4♦ by North should lead to a straightforward auction.

 

What's your definition of a balanced hand?

 

Does this agreement not risk a passout at these colours? No-one has any idea where the Ds are (unless opener is sitting on a side suit stack), but given that you've got game at the absolute min, it seems like good odds for him.

[Jinksy]

I don't normally like to fight my corner in ATB threads, since if my P's not here to defend himself it seems a bit cheap. But the comments that I should have made a forcing bid are almost as unhelpful as the comment that I should have had an agreed system.

 

Had I any confident notion of what my partner would take as forcing, I obviously would have done. But for all I knew, 3C, 3S or any other would have been passed out, jumps in new suits might have been taken as splinter, EKCB or natural GF with the suit, or natural with a solid holding in the suit etc. That's what undiscussed means. So my realistic choices of bid were 4S, 4N, 5S (no idea what it would mean), 5N (ditto, though probably agreeing Ss, or at least not denying them) and 6S. Maybe something creative that might just help tell P what I want and is unlikely to go horribly wrong (4C, not caring too much if it's shortage or length?)

[billw55]

Had I any confident notion of what my partner would take as forcing, I obviously would have done. But for all I knew, 3C, 3S or any other would have been passed out, jumps in new suits might have been taken as splinter, EKCB or natural GF with the suit, or natural with a solid holding in the suit etc. That's what undiscussed means. So my realistic choices of bid were 4S, 4N, 5S (no idea what it would mean), 5N (ditto, though probably agreeing Ss, or at least not denying them) and 6S. Maybe something creative that might just help tell P what I want and is unlikely to go horribly wrong (4C, not caring too much if it's shortage or length?)

With no agreements at all, you should be happy to bid and make six. No blame necessary.

[gnasher]

How does opener show a hand with hearts that is too strong for a heart overcall? Since when did advancer's 2♠ response eliminate spades as opener's major?

My usual rule in Multi-auctions is that when one of us has shown five of a major the other major becomes a cue-bid, unless it's a jump.

[Cyberyeti]

I don't believe your suggested sequence.

 

How does opener show a hand with hearts that is too strong for a heart overcall? Since when did advancer's 2♠ response eliminate spades as opener's major?

 

I would expect the vast majority of players to take your proposed 3♥ bid as natural rather than as a spade raise, absent specific agreement.....and such agreement should cater in some fashion to doubler having hearts.

 

Immediate 3♥ is big with hearts, yes you have a problem with the rare as hell hand too big for that, many balanced ish hands with 5 hearts can bid no trumps over 2♠.

 

As for the actual hand, I would choose 3♠ as advancer, tho this is definitely a minimum for the auction. That would allow doubler to keycard. I hate keycarding with xx in a non-cue'd suit but I just don't see any alternative. And partner's 3♠ call identifies opener's suit as hearts, so I can assume that partner's values are probably in diamonds so I am going to be reasonably safe.

 

I said I might bid 3♠, but since the auction is then trivial, I concentrated on the 2♠ auction.

[mikeh]

My usual rule in Multi-auctions is that when one of us has shown five of a major the other major becomes a cue-bid, unless it's a jump.

A useful rule but, as I said in my post, this sort of thing is an agreement. Absent agreement, I wouldn't pull it on partner.

[gszes]

It is impossible to assign blame here for missing a perfecto 7 so I would

not concern myself about that. The real problem here is why did south

bid 6s??? This is a huge overbid especially in light of the fact that the 2s

(underbid) promises no more than xxx xx xxxx xxxx. The 2s bid narrows

down rho hand to either a weak 2 in hearts or a strong balanced hand.

While the odds strongly favor it being a weak 2 in hearts I mention this

because even 4s is not guaranteed.

 

Assuming you feel compelled to try for 6, once you realize rho probably has

a weak 2 in hearts you will probably get the heart K for an opening lead. If

that happens what cards can partner have that will allow you to make slam.

Even if p has the dia AK you might still need some luck in the spade suit. If

p does not have the dia AK or AQJ slam chances diminish considerably.

Before deciding to just bid slam at least bid 4n and make sure p has the

dia ace because without it slam will almost never make. This gives you a

chance to stop in 5s and if you have decided to try for slam at least you

wont go down off the top:)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

 

When a sequence is undiscussed you both have to revert to "standard"

bidding concepts.

[PhilKing]

I've never heard of the 2♠ bid promising 5, you can look very very silly playing many of the normal defences when you pass 2♦x on a balanced 6 and catch partner with a 4414 21 count.

 

 

It's a bit of a poker position, but in my view, if you bid 2♠ on a four-bagger, you have blinked first.

 

Multi players are familiar with the position - partner opens 2♦, the next hand doubles, and you hold: ♠- ♥Qxxx ♦QTxxx ♣Qxxx or some such pile. You pass, allegedly showing decent diamonds, and the next hand bids 2♠!

 

My view is that the next hand should not panic. Yes, they will concede the occasional 180 when cold for game, but in the long run they gain much more - increased definition when bidding, and penalties against a potential misfit, often in a scenario where a natural weak two would not have been clipped.

 

Bidding 2♠ on a four bagger will often lead to a silly result when we were destined for much better things had we held our nerve.

[the hog]

North's Two Spade bid shows FIVE - he passes with any balanced hand, even a yarborough - -180 or -280 may be your best spot in the circustances.

 

I don't see that it is in any way an underbid playing standard multi defence - partner only passes with the 13-15 balanced type in which case two is often the limit.

 

South should bid 3♥ now, then 4♦ by North should lead to a straightforward auction.

 

North's 2S bid does not show 5 of course, except to you. Passing with a balanced hand would be very poor. I would bid 3S with the Nth hand.

The blast to 6S was....well, what can one say? No, I would not reach 7.

[PhilKing]

I would bid 3S with the Nth hand.

 

 

This is clearly the correct action opposite 13-15 bal. Can't imagine why I did not think of it.

[PeterAlan]

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I know the hand, and at another table E opened a weak 2♥ rather than a multi, doubled by S (no split ranges this time, but shows 4+ ♠; 3♥ is not an option for either S or, in response, for N) and W passed. Does anyone have further thoughts for this variant of the auction?

[P_Marlowe]

I know the hand, and at another table E opened a weak 2♥ rather than a multi, doubled by S (no split ranges this time, but shows 4+ ♠; 3♥ is not an option for either S or, in response, for N) and W passed. Does anyone have further thoughts for this variant of the auction?

Hi,

the first decision to take is the same, to bid only 2S or something stronger.

But now I would bid 2NT followed by 3S to show inv. strength, since I know

about a fit for sure, so the decision to bid something other than 2S is easier

to make.

 

After that S has a obvious cue av., and the small will be reached, you

may be able to construct seq. to reach the grand.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

One such directly over 2D is:

X = 5+ in either major, opening+ values

2H! = 5+ ♣, Opening+

2S! = 5+, opening+

etc.

Also popular is to play 2♠/2NT as the "good" minor suit transfers and 2♥ as a strong NT. This allows Advancer to get out in 2M when bust, which is usually better than 2NT. It is also normal to include some strong hands in the "multi double".

 

On the OP hand, it seems to me that North should respond 2NT, planning to bid 3♠ over 3♣. When doubler shows a big hand with spades instead we are off to the races. Without any agreements whatsoever (not even basic Dixon?!) it seems churlish to assign any blame at all when a making slam has been reached.

[Codo]

This is clearly the correct action opposite 13-15 bal. Can't imagine why I did not think of it.

 

But passing like a Poker player is so good with a balanced hand, because you love to beat 2 ♦ one or two tricks while cold for a slam?

 

And of course bidding 2 ♠ with zero to 10 HCPS is the way to make bidding so easy...

 

 

Maybe the OP should change his double style. I doubt that the need to show balanced hands with 13-15 is useful.