Your call, 4=1=4=4 hand

[Mbodell]

[hv=pc=n&s=st976h4daj53ck976&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=2sd3hp3sdp]133|200[/hv]

[Lord Molyb]

Torn between 4♠, 4NT, and 4♦/4♣. In the end, I pick 4♦.

[PhilKing]

Easy pass. I could even sell this one to my bank manager.

[Lord Molyb]

Easy pass. I could even sell this one to my bank manager.

 

What if your partner had ♠x ♥KQxx ♦KQxx ♣AQJ10? (or anything similar) You can make 5 of either minor quite easily but they will go down only one in 3♠. Heck, if either minor breaks badly, you might still make 5 of either minor, but they'll make 3♠X!

[nigel_k]

What if your partner had ♠x ♥KQxx ♦KQxx ♣AQJ10? (or anything similar) You can make 5 of either minor quite easily but they will go down only one in 3♠. Heck, if either minor breaks badly, you might still make 5 of either minor, but they'll make 3♠X!

It look to me like they are down 2 and you do not make 5♦, but 5♣ is probably ok if trumps break and they don't lead one.

[MrAce]

Phil Clayton knows my answer, apparently other Phil agrees with me.

 

Easy pass for me too.

[the hog]

Very easy 4NT bid - pick a minor.

[JLOGIC]

Wow I really hate passing. This is basically a fit auction and we have no trump tricks. We also have no triks in hearts and partners honors will be poorly placed. If rho is not insane partner will often have a spade void

 

On top of all that we have a great hand for five or six of a m inor. Why risk passing a takeout double with no tricks in either major?

[phil_20686]

It seems like there are lots of likely layouts where the opposition have six spades and two hearts. Not at all hard to imagine that they can have one in the wash.

 

I would say that given the 3H bid is constructive, it is much more likely than normal that partner has extra shape. Possibly fairly extreme like 0355. I son't see any possibility of him having two spades. Partner must have fewer values than Moly's construction.

 

I would think it is wrong to pass. 4N is my choice, would rather play in my best fit than guess to stop at the four level with decent values and both minors.

[JLOGIC]

Full disclosure but I think I played this hand or something, def rings a bell. Maybe biasing me but pretty sure I would still hate passing

[Fluffy]

I would try 3NT at MPs, even if partner has no spade honnor LHO won't underlead AQJ AKJ KQJ so they will be blocked.

[JLOGIC]

I would try 3NT at MPs, even if partner has no spade honnor LHO won't underlead AQJ AKJ KQJ so they will be blocked.

 

Yeah instead he will try a heart that is awesome...

 

DOWN 9 IS GOOD BRIDGE IMO.

 

Also, why are we assuming partner has a spade. Assuming 3H is a lead directing spade raise (it is unspecified but given the 3S bid I think we can assume it was not natural NF and if it was natural forcing then it must be on a spade fit since we know he doesn't have a great hand), don't people usually have 3 spades to raise vul over 2S X?

[PhilKing]

 

Also, why are we assuming partner has a spade. Assuming 3H is a lead directing spade raise (it is unspecified but given the 3S bid I think we can assume it was not natural NF and if it was natural forcing then it must be on a spade fit since we know he doesn't have a great hand), don't people usually have 3 spades to raise vul over 2S X?

 

I doubt any of the passers are assuming that RHO is making a lead directing spade raise.

 

I know I'm not. I am assuming RHO has just shown hearts, but clearly this need clarifying. Hopefully West's Three Spade bid was a mistake ...

[Fluffy]

Yeah instead he will try a heart that is awesome...

 

DOWN 9 IS GOOD BRIDGE IMO.

 

You surely mean down 7 wich is the most, I was down 7 before in 3NT, opponents were extremelly happy to run 5 spades and 6 hearts before I could collect last tricks with my minor aces, they weren't that happy when they saw unanimous 450 on the traveller against their 350 :P. Here vulnerability is different, but I will take my shot at MPs anyway.

[Phil]

I doubt any of the passers are assuming that RHO is making a lead directing spade raise.

 

I know I'm not. I am assuming RHO has just shown hearts, but clearly this need clarifying. Hopefully West's Three Spade bid was a mistake ...

 

No, but perhaps MBodell posted the hand because 3♥ wasn't alerted to determine LA's (probably bids).

[mikeh]

4N for me.

 

I see no way to ensure we have our fit below game, altho I suspect that partner has at least 4=4 minors, and I like my hand for game purposes anyway....especially if we can find a 9 card minor. Then I can expect to draw trump and score a lot of ruffs as well.

 

I can't imagine passing here. I'm with Justin in that I am not playing responder to have nothing but hearts. Not only is such a hand rare, but opener clearly doesn't take it as such. Sure, opener is allowed a 'forget', but unless one's hand screams that that has happened, it usually pays to assume that presumably competent opps know what they are doing in this kind of auction.

[Codo]

Why should I assume competent opponents who just happened to forget the alert?

 

I would take the bids as they had been presented. East has short Spades and West no hand to pass 3 ♥.

 

Whether it is better to bid 4 NT or pass now is much closer then after a fitting 3 ♥ bid. What if partner holds 2533, opener 6034 and Easts 1732? I would like to slaughter 3 ♠.

Is this unlikely? Sure, but what hand is likely to fit to the bidding so far?

[gszes]

4n lets try for a minor suit fit. P has doubled twice opposite a silent

p so they need a fair amount of values to bid like this vul. It is also

way too easy for the 3h :natural: bid to be nothing much more than

a lead director willing to go down 5 if undoubled and more than ready

to run to 3s if doubled. I would rather trust p bidding (they were not

forced to bid over 3s) than worry too much about what the opps are

doing. Passing here when you are virtually certain p is short in

spades is a recipe for disaster.

[JLOGIC]

I doubt any of the passers are assuming that RHO is making a lead directing spade raise.

 

I know I'm not. I am assuming RHO has just shown hearts, but clearly this need clarifying. Hopefully West's Three Spade bid was a mistake ...

 

So you think that RHO has a natural and forcing 3H bid? Whatever their agreements are, we seem to have at least like 24 or 25 HCP and probably more. And our vul RHO was still happy to bid 3H. I'm sure it is universal that RHO probably has some safety with that and has a spade fit, whatever their agreement is. Maybe it's a "psyche" to bid 3H with 3-6 or 2-7 in the majors and a good heart lead director but we know that's what happened right?

 

I guess if you are assuming 3H is natural and non forcing, but in that case LHO would never bid 3S. I agree that we could ask for clarification but if they said 3H was natural and forcing (and I doubt anyone would alert that) then surely you would assume RHO had a spade fit for that bid given that it was made with no HCP?

[JLOGIC]

Why should I assume competent opponents who just happened to forget the alert?

 

I would take the bids as they had been presented. East has short Spades and West no hand to pass 3 ♥.

 

I don't think 3H natural and forcing would be an alert. I would assume 3H natural and NF would be an alert but even if it wouldn't be, your argument breaks down with "west had no hand to pass 3H," surely an opening preemptor would always pass a non forcing advance (unless he had a great fitting hand that would raise).

 

I feel like people are putting their head in the sand if they really believe RHO does not have a spade fit. 2S X 3H when they are known to have at most 16 points between them and their partner bid further indicating it was not a non forcing bid is just always a spade fit. I have no reason to doubt he has hearts on this hand also since I have a stiff heart but sometimes people even psyche that with short hearts just FYI!

[gnasher]

I wonder why people are voting for 4NT rather than 4♠? Both show the mimors, obviously, but 4♠ allows partner to pass the buck with 4NT if he too is 4-4 in the minors. It seems worthwhile to allow for the sequence 4♠-4NT-5♦, getting to the suit where we have two honours rather than one. Given that we may be facing overruffs in either of the majors, playing in the more robust trump suit is likely to be important. Edited November 19, 2012 by gnasher

[JLOGIC]

I wonder why people are voting for 4NT rather than 4♠? Both show the mimors, obviously, but 4♠ allows partner to pass the buck with 4NT if he too is 4-4 in the minors. It seems worthwhile to allow for that sequence, because it will allow us to play in the suit where we have two honours rather than one. Given that we may be facing overruffs in either of the majors, playing in the more robust trump suit is likely to be important.

 

Generally in these auctions I think of 4S as a 1 suited slam try in either minor, and 4N as both minors. Probably better is 4S as both minors and 4N as 1 minor and partner bids 5D if he accepts a club slam try and slam if he accepts both but I do not play that. In this specific auction, maybe both 4S and 4N should be minors since I had a chance to bid 4m earlier and didn't so it is unnecessary to have two 5m bids, but it is obscure enough that I think I would fall back on that meta rule.

[steve2005]

even if not alerted could easily bid 3H for lead with spades if 3H is forcing can always go back to spades.

 

i can't fathom passing surely 3S might make, if this is imps could be very bad. partner is still doubling for takeout, they didnt suddenly finds some spades

i go with 4N pick a minor with a decent hand

[Mbodell]

So there was no alert at the table and no asking. I intentionally didn't talk about opponents because this is from the JEC match 3 weeks ago (hence why it might be familiar - I had previously asked about my second X). If we find 6m on this hand we win the match. If they take the push to 6♠ over 6m we'd win 5 on the board and lose by 1. 5m+1 would push the board, and have us lose by 6. We played 3♠X= for lose 16 on the board to lose by 22 overall. This was my partner's hand. I'm sure I would have given serious consideration to passing (hence why I wasn't sure my second X was right - and about half the poll does pass at IMPs with this hand), and likely would have at MP and might still have at IMPs, but I think I would have bid 4♦ at the table with this hand before the thread which is way too weak - after the thread I much prefer 4nt. Here were the complete hands (rotated):

 

[hv=pc=n&s=st976h4daj53ck976&w=sakq854h6d942ct82&n=shkqj3dkq876caqj3&e=sj32hat98752dtc54&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=2sd3hp3sdppp&p=hkhah4h6dtdad2d6c6c2c3c4ckc8cjc5s6s4d7sjh2c7s5h3d4d8s2d3h5c9s8hjd9dqs3]399|300[/hv]

 

I assume the E hand over 4nt might try 6♦ or 5nt re-ask given the double fit? Or just take the sure plus with 5♦?

[JLOGIC]

He bid 3H with only 5 points!

 

Also, I am not sure north would bid slam over 4N, you need the DA and CK and not to suffer a heart ruff. But I guess partner having a stiff heart is pretty likely. Still, I would think that south would bid 4N with xxx x JTxx Kxxxx. The 2nd double is a pretty strong action. That is another reason I don't understand passing, I am expecting to make 5 of a minor almost always when partner doubles a second time, why risk passing with no major suit tricks?