lebensohl vs scrambling 2NT

[straube]

We play a strong club and we like to use similar conventions for similar situations. Thinking...

 

1S P 2S dbl P ?

 

.....2N-asks longest minor

..........3C-club is longest

...............3D-weak, natural

...............3H-weak, natural

.....3C-weak or constructive

.....3D-constructive

.....3H-constructive

 

1S dbl 2S ?

 

.....dbl-responsive (minors)

.....2N-Lebensohl

..........3C-

...............3D-weak

...............3H-weak

.....3C-constructive

.....3D-constructive

.....3H-constructive

 

1C* (2S) P P dbl P

 

.....2N-asks longest minor

..........3C-clubs longest

...............3D-weak, natural

...............3H-weak, natural

.....3C-weak or constructive

.....3D-constructive

.....3H-constructive

 

So basically Lebensohl when a responsive double is available, but a blend of Scrambling/Lebensohl when a double is not available; blending the two has the cost of discerning whether advancers bid of 3C is constructive or not.

 

Comments?

[dake50]

1C* (2S) P P dbl P

 

.....2N-asks longest minor

..........3C-clubs longest

...............3D-weak, natural

...............3H-weak, natural

.....3C-weak or constructive

.....3D-constructive

.....3H-constructive

 

*** Make 2N-asks longest minor become asks Clubs UNLESS D>C by 2-cards length.

[awm]

In these auctions I generally ask two questions:

 

1. Could we realistically have 26+ hcp?

2. Might I have to bid at the 3-level on a very poor hand?

 

If the answer to both is "yes" then I want to play something like Lebensohl. If the first is "no" then while game is certainly possible it will be rare and I prefer some sort of scramble. If the first is "yes" but second is "no" then I prefer natural bidding.

 

For your examples:

 

1s-pass-2s-dbl: we are unlikely to have 26+ given their bid and raise. I might have to bid 3x on junk. I like scramble here. I'd actually prioritize being able to play 3m when advancer has 4h-4m over distinguishing strength when advanced has diamonds and say 2nt=two places to play or bad with hearts and 3m ambiguous about strength.

 

1s-dbl-2s: here both questions are "no" and I want a way to show 4h more than lebensohl. I like dbl=4h and 4m, 2nt=minors(or bad with hearts).

 

1c-2s-pass-pass-dbl: here both questions are "yes" and I need to distinguish strength. Your method is potentially unable to distinguish 5-7 with clubs (often but not always game) from 0-4 with clubs (better stop in 3) which is potentially really costly!

 

1c-2s direct: first is "yes" second is "no" and I like natural bidding. Transfers seem okay too but I'd stay away from lebensohl.

[straube]

I see how your responsive double promising hearts and a minor works best when the opponents are bidding to 2S. Is that the only situation where your responsive double takes on a nonstandard meaning?

 

Also, I worry a little about 1S X 2S since responder may be bidding on crap.

 

Thanks for your help.

[awm]

I see how your responsive double promising hearts and a minor works best when the opponents are bidding to 2S. Is that the only situation where your responsive double takes on a nonstandard meaning?

 

Also, I worry a little about 1S X 2S since responder may be bidding on crap.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Yeah, this is the only sequence where responsive double shows the other major. It just seems really useful to be able to show four hearts in that sequence.

 

The thing about 1♠-X-2♠ is that while it's possible that opponents are "bidding on crap" even if you assume that responder would always raise on junk (not really true, a fair number of flattish 0-4 point hands will actually pass for most people since opener might make a game try) you still need opener to have a very minimum hand before you have game on power. For example, if opener has 13 and responder 3 you still aren't really in the 3nt range. Certainly you might make a game on this auction (it's far from impossible) but the vast majority of games that make are going to be 4♥. Even if you have "points for game" you may fail in 3NT on the easy spade lead etc and 5m is usually far away unless advancer has a pretty weird hand (that might bid 4m anyway). I'm not saying you will never get stolen from, just that if you base your methods heavily around making it hard to "steal" you will miss a lot of good partials under more ordinary circumstances.

[straube]

How do you play 1Hdbl 2H ?

 

You could do the same...dbl shows 4S and a minor, 2N showing minors or weak diamonds and 3D showing invitational diamonds.

 

If instead double shows both minors, then how is 2N different?

 

 

Also, how dou you handle

 

1N (2S) P P dbl P ? And 1N (2H) P P dbl P ?

[awm]

How do you play 1Hdbl 2H ?

 

You could do the same...dbl shows 4S and a minor, 2N showing minors or weak diamonds and 3D showing invitational diamonds.

 

If instead double shows both minors, then how is 2N different?

 

 

Also, how dou you handle

 

1N (2S) P P dbl P ? And 1N (2H) P P dbl P ?

 

We actually play 2NT natural in the auction 1♥-Dbl-2♥. While we could play double as spades and a minor, we find that usually at the two-level it's better to just bid the spades. Getting out a level lower (and in a major instead of a minor) to play the 4-3 with short hearts in the three trump hand tends to work out pretty well. The natural 2NT is certainly less valuable than having a way to scramble, but with responsive double handling the minors hands we do find some benefit in a natural 2NT in case opponents really are "stealing."

 

The 1NT auctions you've given yield a "no" answer to my first question (we won't have game values, because responder would not pass with game values except maybe an attempt to trap pass) so 2NT is scramble. In the first situation (opponents bid spades) the 2NT bid is any two suits; in the second situation (opponents bid hearts) the 2NT bid is specifically minors. We don't tend to play 2NT for competitive reasons... natural 2NT exists for us only for game-invitation purposes (and then only when not needed for scramble/lebensohl).

[straube]

Thanks. You really have this thought out.

[Zelandakh]

Have you considered the ken-style defence?

 

(1♠) - P - (2♠)

 

X = takeout or minors (2NT advance shows hearts)

2NT = clubs or diamonds or competitive with hearts (Paradox advances)

3m = m + hearts

3♥ = good hand with hearts

 

After (1♥) - X - (2♥), I think it is best just to bid spades straight away if you have them. After a 1NT opening and re-opening double from Opener is just about the most obvious situation for scrambling 2NT I can think of. Indeed, if you are introducing an intermediate to the concept of Scrambling 2NT then I think this is pretty much the ideal auction to start with.