Tortured

[kfay]

Playing with a VERY good partner for the first time you see the following:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=skqj63hdj932ca963&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1dp1h1s2h3d4h]133|200[/hv]

 

So what's all this mean and what do you do?

[billw55]

It means east has six hearts and north has a limit raise. I bid 4♠; my hand could be much worse. If north has no waste in hearts, a reasonable hope, I expect to make.

[quiddity]

3♦ sounds natural to me. If I were sure, I guess I'd bid 4NT as a slam try. I'm too scared to do it with a first-time partner though, and it seems pushy anyway with J-high of diamonds and no ace of spades, so I'll try 5♦.

[mikeh]

In for a penny, in for a pound:5♥

 

3♦ has to describe diamond length and strength and, imo, spades as well. I am hoping for something like Axxx xx AQ10xx xx, tho I may not need the diamond 10...the 8 might suffice.

 

But I am not prepared to commit to 6♦ and will let us out at 5♠. A VERY good partner will understand that I cannot possibly be making a slam try unless his diamond bid found me at home. I am hoping for 5N over which I will bid diamonds.

 

As to why 3♦shows diamonds: we don't need both red cues as a limit raise and in a first time partnership he won't play us to have nuanced meanings about 3♦/3♥. The latter is so clearly a spade raise that it would be the default choice, hence 3♦ is either natural or fit.

 

I rule out natural on frequency grounds. With 3 spades he'd raise spades. With only 2 spades, he can't assume diamond support and his maximum length is 6 cards, and we are red, so with a misfit he would pass. Yes, that could mean never bidding AKQxxx in a suit, but we can't cater to everything, and that holding is remote.

 

I may be turning a plus, at 4♠, into a minus at the 5 or 6 level, but my VERY good partner will certainly want to play with me again if I have read the position accurately. If I simply punt with 4♠ (or an imo hideous 5♦) he'll think his brillaint bid was pearls before swine. Assuming, of course, that we are on the same page re brillancy :P

 

It will be obvious that I think RHO is out trying to rob us blind on some hand such as 2=7=0=4 or 1=6=0=6/ 1=6=1=5 and so on. Tho if he has a diamond, LHO is 4=4=3=2, which bodes poorly for 5♠.

[kenrexford]

In for a penny, in for a pound:5♥

 

3♦ has to describe diamond length and strength and, imo, spades as well. I am hoping for something like Axxx xx AQ10xx xx, tho I may not need the diamond 10...the 8 might suffice.

 

But I am not prepared to commit to 6♦ and will let us out at 5♠. A VERY good partner will understand that I cannot possibly be making a slam try unless his diamond bid found me at home. I am hoping for 5N over which I will bid diamonds.

 

As to why 3♦shows diamonds: we don't need both red cues as a limit raise and in a first time partnership he won't play us to have nuanced meanings about 3♦/3♥. The latter is so clearly a spade raise that it would be the default choice, hence 3♦ is either natural or fit.

 

I rule out natural on frequency grounds. With 3 spades he'd raise spades. With only 2 spades, he can't assume diamond support and his maximum length is 6 cards, and we are red, so with a misfit he would pass. Yes, that could mean never bidding AKQxxx in a suit, but we can't cater to everything, and that holding is remote.

 

I may be turning a plus, at 4♠, into a minus at the 5 or 6 level, but my VERY good partner will certainly want to play with me again if I have read the position accurately. If I simply punt with 4♠ (or an imo hideous 5♦) he'll think his brillaint bid was pearls before swine. Assuming, of course, that we are on the same page re brillancy :P

 

It will be obvious that I think RHO is out trying to rob us blind on some hand such as 2=7=0=4 or 1=6=0=6/ 1=6=1=5 and so on. Tho if he has a diamond, LHO is 4=4=3=2, which bodes poorly for 5♠.

 

I agree with yuour entire analysis except for the bid that you selected.

 

5♥? Really? I mean, what is 5♥ supposed to be showing or asking? If it is Exclusion 6KCB, OK, but who plays that undiscussed? Specifically showing a void and club control, perhaps, but that seems esoteric.

 

I would just blast 6♦. Obviously, I am not deying the spades that I already promised, but I am now showing slam acceptance and four diamonds, IMO. Why hope for 5NT and the ability to bid 6♦? Just bid 6♦ yourself.

[Fluffy]

diamond values on a spade limit raise hand. But contrary to mike I don't think diamond lenght is needed, something like ♦AQx would be enough for me. I have too much clubs to worry about to think about slam.

[JLOGIC]

3♦ sounds natural to me. If I were sure, I guess I'd bid 4NT as a slam try. I'm too scared to do it with a first-time partner though, and it seems pushy anyway with J-high of diamonds and no ace of spades, so I'll try 5♦.

 

This has always been what I thought too but it is a (very) minority view. I understand wanting 3D and 3H to be raises (especially if 2N is not one), but distinguishing between "values in the suit" rather than trump length or hand strength makes no sense to me. If I were going to play that way, I would rather just play 3D as natural and 3H as all of my raises. After all when you pass over 1D and later want to bid, it is not unlikely that you have diamonds.

 

In real life with a new partner and everything undiscussed I would just be practical and bid 4S. We know from our hand partner has a spade raise and who knows what he thinks the difference is between 3D and 3H. Taking a flyer and bidding or trying for slam is great on the forums but I would never do that irl and just hope we're on the same page.

[gnasher]

I think it's normal for 3♦ and 3♥ to both be spade raises. There are lots of ways to use them, including:

- Bid the one where you have values

- 3♦ is the normal raise and 3♥ shows shortage

- 3♦ is stronger than 3♥

- 3♦ is three-card support and 3♥ is four-card support

- 3♦ is a fit bid and 3♥ is the normal raise

 

Partner might think that any of these is standard, but anyway I want to play in 4♠ opposite most of them. Trying to play slam in the suit that they opened seems rather optimistic.

[jogs]

In for a penny, in for a pound:5♥

 

3♦ has to describe diamond length and strength and, imo, spades as well. I am hoping for something like Axxx xx AQ10xx xx, tho I may not need the diamond 10...the 8 might suffice.

 

 

If pard has that much, what was opponents bidding on? That leaves them 19 points with only one ace.

[SteveMoe]

Following Justin, I'll also cater to partner's imaginative raise on ♠xxxx ♥xxxx ♦AQ10x ♣x and bid 4♠. Partner simply saw the complementary singletons...

[han]

To me 3D shows diamonds but clearly our VERY good partner has different thoughts. Perhaps he just has a limit raise and hasn't considered that 3H is available instead. I would just bid 4S.

[Fluffy]

To me 3D shows diamonds but clearly our VERY good partner has different thoughts.

This won't be that clear if LHO shows up with ♠A10xx ♥KJxx ♦xxx ♣KJ :P

[lowerline]

Playing with a VERY good partner for the first time you see the following:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=skqj63hdj932ca963&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1dp1h1s2h3d4h]133|200[/hv]

 

So what's all this mean and what do you do?

 

Let's see: partner can raise with 2♠, 2nt, 3♥, 3♠, 4♣, 4♦, 4♥ and 4♠.

Maybe pass, 3♣ and 3♦ just mean he has no spade support...?

I'm not sure about 3nt...

 

Steven

[Phil]

3♦ shows diamonds. I don't think it says bupkis about spades.

 

4♦ would be a fit jump in diamonds.

 

I bid 5♦.

[mikeh]

3♦ shows diamonds. I don't think it says bupkis about spades.

 

4♦ would be a fit jump in diamonds.

 

I bid 5♦.

I think 4♦ would be a splinter

 

4♦ is gf, while 3♦, if used as fit, is not. Just on frequency grounds, it seems to me that partner will have invitational or better far more often than he has a fit game force, where his side suit is ostensibly held by an opp. Of course a splinter is also gf, but with say 4=3=1=5, on this auction the splinter is probably more valuable than the fit..that is to say, a hand with the same hcp with a splinter is likely to have more playing strength than a hand with 4=2=5=2, length in opener's suit.

 

I think those who believe that it makes sense for 3♦ to be natural, with no spade fit, are really giving far too much credit to the strength of the 1♠ overcall. Yes, we know that we hold an opening hand, but we would have overcalled on far weaker hands that this one, especially with short diamonds, and now our partner is bidding one of their suits 'to play' red at the 3-level on a hand where we rate to have a misfit. I'll gladly give up all such natural meanings, thank you.

[JLOGIC]

3♦ shows diamonds. I don't think it says bupkis about spades.

 

4♦ would be a fit jump in diamonds.

 

I bid 5♦.

 

I can't believe you'd bid 5D at the table in these conditions though. For partner to have a natural 3D bid presumably he has at least 6 diamonds (duh) and presumably he has a pretty good hand. That is possible, LHO might be 4432 and RHO might have responded light esp with a long major.

 

On the other hand it is very unlikely, and given that most of the "very good players" in this thread would assume 3D is a raise of some kind (though who knows what!) it is much more likely that partner has a spade raise given all of that evidence. Surely 5D is not a great bid given all of that.

 

I think it's normal for 3♦ and 3♥ to both be spade raises. There are lots of ways to use them, including:

- Bid the one where you have values

- 3♦ is the normal raise and 3♥ shows shortage

- 3♦ is stronger than 3♥

- 3♦ is three-card support and 3♥ is four-card support

- 3♦ is a fit bid and 3♥ is the normal raise

 

Partner might think that any of these is standard, but anyway I want to play in 4♠ opposite most of them.

 

Yes but with no standard definition this is meaningless for pickup partnerships. I think that Fluffys answer of more values in the suit that you cuebid is what many people think but obviously that is terrible. I think defaulting to natural unless otherwise discussed would be better.

 

FWIW in my partnerships I would play 3H as a mixed raise, 3D as a 3 card limit + and 2N as a 4 card limit+. If I played 2N was art I'd probably want to distinguish between 3 and 4 card support, this is the most important thing when they jump to 4H and you have to decide whether to bid 4S or not imo.

[quiddity]

On the other hand it is very unlikely, and given that most of the "very good players" in this thread would assume 3D is a raise of some kind (though who knows what!) it is much more likely that partner has a spade raise given all of that evidence. Surely 5D is not a great bid given all of that.

 

Sure, most of the very good players think 3♦ should be a raise of some kind, but I bet most of the same very good players would avoid bidding 3♦ undiscussed in a first time partnership unless there is no other way to describe the hand. I think it's extremely unlikely he would bid this way with a spade raise when he has an easy, unambiguous 3♥ bid. I don't think he would assume any standard meaning for 3♦ - he would know that it might mean any number of things - so there's no reason to bid it unless he holds the hand with 6 good diamonds and no other bid and they have the agreement that all undiscussed bids are natural.

 

If he has bid this way with a spade raise, undiscussed, then he made a mistake. If he did it with a diamond hand, and the agreement that all undiscussed bids are natural, then he made a great bid. Why would you play your VERY good partner to have made a mistake?

[mikeh]

I guess we are all looking forward to seeing what our VERY good partner actually had.

 

At the risk of repeating myself, and fully aware of the usual rule that 'if a bid can be natural, it should be natural when undiscussed' I think a VERY good partner would/could reason as follows:

 

1. Partner will never play me to be introducing a 6 card diamond suit without spades, since we are on a misfit (tho the opps have a heart fit) and we are red. In addition, I can't play partner, who made a butt-in 1♠, which may well be a good spade suit and out, to have the values to make this a safe contract red at imps.

 

2. Partner would know that I know that 3♥ is unambiguously a spade raise saying nothing about hearts.

 

3. Partner will therefore infer that I must hold both diamonds and spades.

 

 

I agree that I may not have given enough weight to the possibility that partner may be showing only diamond values, rather than length. The notion that his diamonds may be AQx worries me. I might survive at my 5♠ contract (to which partner will have run over my 5♥) but I will normally be too high.

 

Having said that, I still like my 5♥ choice, even tho the only other person who supports my reading of the hand, while disagreeing with my call, was Ken! That really has me worrying that I've drunk the hallucinogenic kool-aid :P

[quiddity]

Perhaps he just has a limit raise and hasn't considered that 3H is available instead.

 

I think this is impossible. More likely he intended it as a mixed raise.

[rsteele]

Firstly I disagree with your premise "very good partner". He or she may very well be a very good player but no very good partner would torture you with an undiscussed auction of this sort. In Std a 3D overcall of one diamond shows diamonds. Therefoe partner does not want to play 3 diamonds. But it is perhaps std that without further agreements 3 hearts is a good raise in spades. So why confuse things with 3 diamonds. Certainly after the game you might discuss what 3D in the given auction means but for now you must guess. If partner has spades with a partial in Diamonds Axxx xxxx AQTx X You will play very well indeed. If he has - as some have suggested a 5 cr D suit and 4 spades - XXXX XXX AKTxx x you may make 6. So why not return the torture - I bid 5 CLUBS

[JLOGIC]

Sure, most of the very good players think 3♦ should be a raise of some kind, but I bet most of the same very good players would avoid bidding 3♦ undiscussed in a first time partnership unless there is no other way to describe the hand. I think it's extremely unlikely he would bid this way with a spade raise when he has an easy, unambiguous 3♥ bid.

 

By this logic, partner would also not bid 3D with a natural 3D bid since it is very likely to be misinterpreted. I would probably never bid 3D with any hand undiscussed, but I doubt many people would think that we would take it as natural.

 

Your thinking is a good reason for the metarule "if it can be natural it is" but it is too hard on a new partnership to assume this thought process is univeral.

 

It is more likely that partner never considered that we would take 3D as natural since it is a very atypical way to play, this is even more true if he knows we have some diamond length (if he has heart length which he probably does). Maybe he just wanted to leave us room to bid 3H who knows.

 

I would suggest that just based on common sense your conclusion to take 3D as natural comes from a thought process that is too convoluted. Here you are playing partner to have a natural 3D bid which is almost impossible given our hand, and for him to have made a natural 3D bid even though that is a non standard way of playing that is very accident prone in a new partnership. I understand your reasoning for why this should be the case undiscussed but most people at the end of the day will not bid a natural 3D and expect you to be on the same page, they will be scared of an accident. There are many ways to think about a problem or a situation, and situations where you have no rules and agreements are interesting, but that is the problem, there are many ways to think about it and your partner might not think about it the same way, even if they are VERY GOOD. There is no reason to punish partner when we know almost for sure that it was a spade raise, even if he could have/should have bid 3H instead.

[JLOGIC]

I guess we are all looking forward to seeing what our VERY good partner actually had.

 

At the risk of repeating myself, and fully aware of the usual rule that 'if a bid can be natural, it should be natural when undiscussed' I think a VERY good partner would/could reason as follows:

 

1. Partner will never play me to be introducing a 6 card diamond suit without spades, since we are on a misfit (tho the opps have a heart fit) and we are red. In addition, I can't play partner, who made a butt-in 1♠, which may well be a good spade suit and out, to have the values to make this a safe contract red at imps.

 

2. Partner would know that I know that 3♥ is unambiguously a spade raise saying nothing about hearts.

 

3. Partner will therefore infer that I must hold both diamonds and spades.

 

 

I agree that I may not have given enough weight to the possibility that partner may be showing only diamond values, rather than length. The notion that his diamonds may be AQx worries me. I might survive at my 5♠ contract (to which partner will have run over my 5♥) but I will normally be too high.

 

Having said that, I still like my 5♥ choice, even tho the only other person who supports my reading of the hand, while disagreeing with my call, was Ken! That really has me worrying that I've drunk the hallucinogenic kool-aid :P

 

So to you 3D is obviously a fit bid, to fluffy it is simply some values in diamonds could just be AQx, and to quiddity it is obviously natural.

 

Rather than going slamming when there are many different interpretations of what the 3D bidder must obviously hold, we admit that it is not clear what he holds but that he has some kind of spade raise based on our hand and just bid 4S? The last thing I'm trying to do when I am unsure of what is going on is bid a slam when the vulnerable opponents have opened the bidding, responded, raised, and jumped to game. The likelihood that we have a slam in those circumstances is so low to begin with, adding to that that we really don't have much of an idea what partner is trying to show exactly with 3D, I honestly feel like this thread has gone mad! I mean, mikeh trying to hit a homerun with an aggro bid, it's like a bizarro world thread :P

 

edit: Also, on top of all of that, if partner really does have 5 diamonds they are going to split 4-0 and we will either have to handle the 4-0 trump split or face diamond ruffs if we get lightner doubled while playing spades. Maybe partner has all the diamond spots and it will be fine but this makes it even less likely that we can make slam with no HCP than usual, even if partner has the hand we are hoping for. For instance, even if he has AQT8x of diamonds, if we ruff 2 hearts we will not be able to pick up diamonds. I just cannot imagine bidding 5H or anything other than 4S if you think partner has a spade fit

[Hanoi5]

It's clearly a splinter bid. I bid 4♠, partner'll double 5♥.

[hrothgar]

In for a penny, in for a pound:5♥

 

3♦ has to describe diamond length and strength and, imo, spades as well. I am hoping for something like Axxx xx AQ10xx xx, tho I may not need the diamond 10...the 8 might suffice.

 

 

Silly question

 

West showed Diamonds and is on opening lead

We have Diamonds

 

If partner has Diamond length then RHO would seem to have a stiff or a void.

 

Spade slam looks kinda dicey

[Phil]

reconsidered