ATB: 3S+2

[kgr]

IMPs

[hv=pc=n&s=skqj752hadKt74c62&n=sa6hj2dA985cqt9864&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=pp1sp2cp2spp3h3sppp]266|200[/hv]

first time partner with few agreements:

- Not 2/1 GF

- Not agreed if 2S was forcing, apparently not.

- 2NT iso 2C would have been GF with 4cS

- 2NT iso 2S would be 15+

How should bidding have gone?

[Cyberyeti]

Not sure how it should have gone, with us:

 

1♠-2♣

2♦-3♦

3♠-4♠

 

On your auction if you play a weak 2 that tops out at 10 and you really do open it at the top end, I'd probably bid 3♠ over 2♠. You don't need much for game to be decent, I'd certainly bid 4♠ when partner bids 3.

[mike777]

I dont understand any of norths bids?

 

100% north.

 

harder to stay out of 5s or 5d then bid and play in 3s.

[aguahombre]

The 2S rebid by opener was correct and fine, and responder can raise with honor doubleton and invitational values. Opener must have 6 spades for the sequence and more power than a weak-two.

[billw55]

North decides not to open the bidding - ok, this is close. But then to not even scrape up an invite over 2♠ is really awful. Whiffing on the second chance is maybe predictable but at least adds amusement.

 

For south, I think his hand is good enough to bid 6-4-6. But with this catatonic north I am not sure even that would help.

 

90% north.

[TimG]

I wonder what North was thinking when he passed 2♠.

[kenrexford]

I wonder what North was thinking when he passed 2♠.

 

North may have been thinking along these lines:

 

My 2♣ call shows 11 HCP with five clubs, because a 2/1 promises 11 HCP. If I had 0-1 spades, then I would have opened (Rule of Twenty). Hence, I must have 11 HCP, two spades, and five clubs. If partner wants to play 2♠ opposite exactly what I have, that's fine with me.

 

I am not saying that this is right or wrong. But, it that is what North thought, then his bidding was perfect.

[Vampyr]

North may have been thinking along these lines:

 

My 2♣ call shows 11 HCP with five clubs, because a 2/1 promises 11 HCP. If I had 0-1 spades, then I would have opened (Rule of Twenty). Hence, I must have 11 HCP, two spades, and five clubs. If partner wants to play 2♠ opposite exactly what I have, that's fine with me.

 

I am not saying that this is right or wrong. But, it that is what North thought, then his bidding was perfect.

 

This is all a bit unlikely, though; since 2/1 was not GF, it probably didn't promise 11 especially not by a passed hand -- what would the range be, 11-11?)

[PhilKing]

This is all a bit unlikely, though; since 2/1 was not GF, it probably didn't promise 11 especially not by a passed hand -- what would the range be, 11-11?)

 

It's narrower than that - 11.5 to 11.75.

 

B-)

[lowerline]

IMPs

[hv=pc=n&s=skqj752hadKt74c62&n=sa6hj2dA985cqt9864&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=pp1sp2cp2spp3h3sppp]266|200[/hv]

first time partner with few agreements:

- Not 2/1 GF

- Not agreed if 2S was forcing, apparently not.

- 2NT iso 2C would have been GF with 4cS

- 2NT iso 2S would be 15+

How should bidding have gone?

 

If I were North I would have bid 3♠ over 2♠.

If I were South I would have bid 2♦ over 2♣.

In both cases it is easy to reach 4♠...

 

Steven

[Vampyr]

It's narrower than that - 11.5 to 11.75.

 

B-)

 

Maybe narrower still -- 11.75 would probably have opened.

[ahydra]

I thought "Always introduce a good 4-card suit before rebidding a 6-card suit"? So I'd bid 1S; 2C-2D. Now North has an obvious raise to 3D. I think South bids 3S at this point, but is it forcing? Well, South could just pass 3D so surely it must be, and surely it shows 6 cards since N would bid spades 2nd time if he had 3 of them, so then North raises to 4, and all is well.

 

On the actual auction, pass of 2S is silly. South wouldn't rebid spades with 5332, he'd rebid NT, therefore he has 6 spades and N should bid 3S (South having an easy raise to game).

 

ahydra

[kgr]

I thought "Always introduce a good 4-card suit before rebidding a 6-card suit"? So I'd bid 1S; 2C-2D. Now North has an obvious raise to 3D. I think South bids 3S at this point, but is it forcing? Well, South could just pass 3D so surely it must be, and surely it shows 6 cards since N would bid spades 2nd time if he had 3 of them, so then North raises to 4, and all is well.

 

On the actual auction, pass of 2S is silly. South wouldn't rebid spades with 5332, he'd rebid NT, therefore he has 6 spades and N should bid 3S (South having an easy raise to game).

 

ahydra

see OP. 2NT iso 2S is 15+

[ahydra]

see OP. 2NT iso 2S is 15+

 

Right - I meant "with 15+ and 5332" then, but you would rebid 2S with a 12-14 5332 (Acol style)? If so, then South cannot afford to bid 2S because his hand is MUCH better than a 12-14 5332.

 

ahydra

[aguahombre]

Actually, something's got to bend with the OP conditions, as shown by the posts.

 

Semi-forcing NT instead of 2C, for instance ---to eliminate the range problems for 5-3-3-2 and establish 2S as having 6.

 

Or, mark-time 2D/2C to let responder rebid something meaningful if opener is 5-3-3-2 ---to keep 2S as 6+ and 2nt as 15+.

 

Or, (perish the thought) opening 1NT with 5-3-3-2 and one of those ranges, depending on whether it is weak NT or strong NT.

 

Something.

Edited November 15, 2012 by aguahombre

[neilkaz]

I wonder what North was thinking when he passed 2♠.

He should have been thinking whether he'd have the same partner for the next hand after this pass, but his failure to raise the freely bid 3♠ to 4 was just as bad.

[rmnka447]

Bidding with red pockets at IMPs, North must raise to 4 ♠ once South bids 3 ♠.

 

The scoring at IMPs is such that you should bid even games with less than even chances of making vulnerable. North is on the edge of an opener, but I think initially passing is fine with the dangling ♥ J and only decent looking ♣. So, once South shows 6 ♠s and there is a known 8 card fit, it's imperative for North to go on.

 

South should also strongly consider bidding 2 ♦ for a rebid rather than 2 ♠. He has minimum values in terms of points, but only a 5 loser hand. Because of the basic agreements -- 2 NT rebid after a 2/1 bid shows 15+ -- opener will often have to rebid 2 ♠ with nondescript 5-3-3-2 hands or bad distributional hands -- say AKJxx Kx xxxx xx. As is the case here, that puts North into a quandary as to what to do next because South's hand is still a complete mystery other than being an opener. So even with any reasonably good minimum -- even AKJxx xx K10xx xx (2 ♦) -- opener ought to make some other forward going bid, if available, to keep the auction going.

 

That being said, I think North as responder owes opener another bid after 2 ♠. North has told opener that they're at least in a game invitational situation by bidding 2 ♣. Not knowing exactly what opener holds, it still needs to be determined if game is possible. So it's rather unilateral for North to pass. 3 ♣ is unattractive with North's modest ♣ holding. So I think the choice is between 2 NT and 3 ♦ -- I'd opt for 2 NT. If North is unwilling to take a second call after a 2 ♠ rebid maybe 1 NT should have been bid initially.

[kgr]

Thanks all for the answers.

I was south and thought that 2S was forcing. I think it is in majeure cinquieme, and it is easier if it is forcing.

With my regular partner I play it forcing.

My plan was: 1S 2S 3D, and maybe my hand is too good for that.

[Zelandakh]

but you would rebid 2S with a 12-14 5332 (Acol style)?

Is 12-14 5332 (Acol style) not a 1NT opening? :blink:

[helene_t]

see OP. 2NT iso 2S is 15+

A balanced 12-13 would pass 2♣ wouldn't it? Or maybe 2♦ on a 3-card suit sometimes, which is also what would be the rebid if responder were unpassed.

 

I strongly believe that

1♠-2♣

2♠*

should promise six in any natural system (except if 2♠ includes weak hands with 5-4+ blacks as in SAYC, but in that case 2♠ is forcing, and opener would have passed 2♣ with such a hand so that can be rules out). But even without that agreement, responder should assume that opener has six spades which he will have almost all the times.

[lowerline]

Thanks all for the answers.

I was south and thought that 2S was forcing. I think it is in majeure cinquieme, and it is easier if it is forcing.

With my regular partner I play it forcing.

My plan was: 1S 2S 3D, and maybe my hand is too good for that.

 

Whatever your agreements, I don't see how a 2♦ rebid can be wrong... Besides, bidding spades twice before bidding diamonds shows a weaker hand than when bidding diamonds in between.

 

Steven

[Codo]

In SEF (majeure cinque) 2 ♠ is forcing opposite a 2 ♣bid of an unpassed partner. I doubt that this is true here too.

 

Whether or not to rebid the major first with 6/4 had been discussed in length. I do not share the american mainstream view that you show different strength types with MMm opposite MmM, but it seems to be BWS...