kfay Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 [hv=pc=n&s=sjt72h9654dakj95c]133|100|2nd seat unfavorable IMPs[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyGo Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 No. No reason to pre-empt partner, and while I did think about 2♦ and 1♦ both are big enough lies with only lead directing upside that I don't see the reason to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_20686 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 I would not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Nope. If pard opens I can bid my hand without lying to them. If they open, I can't be shut out unless I want to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 God no. 5440 is seriously overrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 no weak 3 suited hand tend to not play that great so pass in second seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 If you have an Ekren 2♦ (=both majors 4+4+) or something similar, then certainly. If not, then certainly not ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 I play Ekren, but would pass this hand because there is a more important feature in this hand then the majors... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Fay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfay Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Maybe I haven't been playing enough lately :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Guess not, you're a point short of even having to ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Borderline. Much better than the typical balanced 11 HCP rubbish, which is nowadays opened by many routinely. I suspect almost all on this forum would open [hv=pc=n&s=sqj7h9654dakj95c2]133|100|2nd seat unfavorable IMPs[/hv] which is not better. Rainer Herrmann 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Borderline. Much better than the typical balanced 11 HCP rubbish, which is nowadays opened by many routinely. I suspect almost all on this forum would open [hv=pc=n&s=sqj7h9654dakj95c2]133|100|2nd seat unfavorable IMPs[/hv] which is not better. Rainer HerrmannIt's a lot better if we don't find a fit. Or if partner doubles something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmnka447 Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Clear pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMoe Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 NO.Never mislead in 2nd seat.Never take undue risk 2nd seat unfav.NO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 It's a lot better if we don't find a fit. Or if partner doubles something."a lot" is an exaggeration. A tiny bit better I can agree. The chances of finding a fit with 4=4=5=0 compared to 3=4=5=1 are substantially better, as are game chances. The chances of finding at least an eight card fit with 4=4=5=0 is 89.27% and for a nine card fit it is still 44.4%. Chances of finding no fit is less than having a ten card or better fit. I am not claiming that Pass can not win. But there is reason to be optimistic here. As can be seen from the comments in this thread compared to others, most people get aggressive with the wrong type of hands when it comes to opening bid requirements. Rainer Herrmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 As can be seen from the comments in this thread compared to others, most people get aggressive with the wrong type of hands when it comes to opening bid requirements. That is not at all clear. There are many reasons that could be the case. For example, after passing on this hand it will generally be easy to come in later so nothing may have been lost by passing, whereas on the "worse" hands that people open in other threads, it may be harder to come in later. Lots of what you say is incomplete evidence. Yes game chances are better on 4450 than 3451, but do you know they are better on 4450 9 count compared to 3451 11 count? (I'm sure now that I brought it up, you will tell me...) Yes a fit is likely with 4450 but will you always get to a 5-3 diamond fit, or even want to play it? And how likely is a fit with 3451? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 That is not at all clear. There are many reasons that could be the case. For example, after passing on this hand it will generally be easy to come in later so nothing may have been lost by passing, whereas on the "worse" hands that people open in other threads, it may be harder to come in later.This is always claimed when people choose Pass as their initial option. I do not share this view. Tempo is crucial in the bidding. Even if I could show my precise distribution after opponents bidding I prefer coming in first and giving opponents a problem to show their strength and distribution. Lots of what you say is incomplete evidence. Yes game chances are better on 4450 than 3451, but do you know they are better on 4450 9 count compared to 3451 11 count? (I'm sure now that I brought it up, you will tell me...) Yes a fit is likely with 4450 but will you always get to a 5-3 diamond fit, or even want to play it? Evidence is almost always incomplete :rolleyes: Otherwise there would hardly be anything to argue about. I choose the 3451 11 count example hand, because a priory I evaluate it as roughly equivalent in value to the 4450 9 count. I agree that on defense I slightly prefer the 5431 11 count.If I get a fit and we declare I have a preference for the 4450 (a big preference if played in spades). And how likely is a fit with 3451?With 3451 chances for at least an 8 card fit is 85.8% for a nine card fit 39%Game chances for 4=4=5=0 is a priory 45% and for 3=4=5=1 33% , but this is over the whole HCP distribution. Game chances for an 11 and 9 HCP hand in general over all shapes are 32% and 24%. Rainer Herrmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 In general I prefer 4450 shape over 3451 shape and 11 HCP over 9 HCP. I am glad to see that rhm's numbers suggest that my intuition is spot on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Borderline. Much better than the typical balanced 11 HCP rubbish, which is nowadays opened by many routinely. I suspect almost all on this forum would open [hv=pc=n&s=sqj7h9654dakj95c2]133|100|2nd seat unfavorable IMPs[/hv] which is not better. Rainer Herrmann Not close to a borderline opening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 I would open. But i am aware my choice is very agressive, for some of you probably insane, but whatever, i would really open. Please don't throw eggs on me, i am just honestly saying what i would do with this hand. :) Opening light has disadvanteges, worst of them is finding a partner who has no fit and not enough hcps to close the gap, but strong enough to drag us too high and perhaps doubled. I am aware of that, but i really think this hand has really good pottential to find a fit. Passing is obviously the normal call on that hand, i am also aware that i am splitting my path from others. Otoh Rainer was more than fair enough actually, we see almost all 11 hcp 4432 hands opening, let alone 5431. (check the vugraph archives, i am talking about world class top players) So 544 with decent spotr and both majors instead of 4432 worths 2 hcp ? I dunno, but having both majors i am getting in right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Molyb Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 I would only open that in 3rd or 4th seat, if partner has a 13 point 3-3-4-3 hand you might end up in 3NT -3 on a club lead, and if he has a 16+ point 4-3-1-5 hand he might be looking for slam when the most you can make is 4♠. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 I would only open that in 3rd or 4th seat, if partner has a 13 point 3-3-4-3 hand you might end up in 3NT -3 on a club lead, and if he has a 16+ point 4-3-1-5 hand he might be looking for slam when the most you can make is 4♠. You mean something like that ? AKQxAxxQJxxxx Just kidding :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Molyb Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 You mean something like that ? AKQxAxxQJxxxx Just kidding :PI meant to imply wasted values in clubs -_- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lycier Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 never open for that hand in the second seat,but maybe open at the third,only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.