JLOGIC Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 It's too late. Lead a heart. Get in, lead a heart. Get in, lead a heart. Get in and lead a heart! I don't know what the hand is, but this beats it. If partner is broke, a top spade lets it through. BUT YOU MIGHT GIVE THEM A RUFF/SLUFF!!!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 BUT YOU MIGHT GIVE THEM A RUFF/SLUFF!!!!! My bad - must have been drunk. :( I can always reevaluate after seeing dummy and switch to one of my singletons. :ph34r: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jogs Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 It's too late. Lead a heart. Get in, lead a heart. Get in, lead a heart. Get in and lead a heart! I don't know what the hand is, but this beats it. If partner is broke, a top spade lets it through. I don't see it. Every time I lead a heart from that holdingit is Ax on one hand and Qx on the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 I don't see it. Every time I lead a heart from that holdingit is Ax on one hand and Qx on the other. Heart to their queen.Spade to our queenHeart to their aceSpade to our kingHeart, ruffed by EastSpade to our aceHeart, ruffed by West How many trumps do East and West have left? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Heart to their queen.Spade to our queenHeart to their aceSpade to our kingHeart, ruffed by EastSpade to our aceHeart, ruffed by West How many trumps do East and West have left? It's even better than that: Heart king to their aceSpade to partner's jackHeart to their queenSpade to our queenclaim six down Worse is that the top spade crashing partner's jack possibly lets it through! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jogs Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Heart to their queen.Spade to our queenHeart to their aceSpade to our kingHeart, ruffed by EastSpade to our aceHeart, ruffed by West How many trumps do East and West have left? Try both ruffs by East or both ruffs by West.Maybe many of the trumps played on separate tricks.South may only make his 3 top spades if trumpsare 5-4.If you blindly defend four trumps off the top,E-W makes 2 spades, 1 heart. E-W must then find7 minor suit tricks to make this hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Try both ruffs by East or both ruffs by West.Suppose that East starts with four trumps. He plays a trump at trick 2, won by my queen. He plays a trump at trick 4, won by my king. He ruffs trick 5. He plays a trump at trick 6, won by my ace. How many trumps does he have left? Maybe many of the trumps played on separate tricks.Are you suggesting that they can crossruff? Have you tried constructing a layout where this works (given that it's a 4-4 fit) and leading turmps will beat the contract? I'm not saying that it's impossible, but I think it's hard to produce a credible layout. South may only make his 3 top spades if trumps are 5-4.Yes. I said that in post 22. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Are you suggesting that they can crossruff? Have you tried constructing a layout where this works (given that it's a 4-4 fit) and leading turmps will beat the contract? I'm not saying that it's impossible, but I think it's hard to produce a credible layout. I will do for you :), with only 4 side tricks they cannot crossruff 6 more without me overruffing at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 You can take a horse to water ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jogs Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Assume trumps are 4=1=4=4 around the table.You start with four trumps and they make 4♠.That means partner has nothing. They make 1 spade,1 heart and 8 minor suit tricks. Heart to their queen.Spade to our queenHeart to their aceSpade to our kingHeart, ruffed by EastSpade to our aceHeart, ruffed by West How many trumps do East and West have left? Your declarer wont play that badly. After a spade to our kinghe will know trumps don't split 3-2. He will not continue witha spade to the ace on trick 6. He will go to plan B. He willjust cash his 8 minor suit winners. If there are problems withcommunications, he may go down 2. He will not go downa telephone number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Your declarer wont play that badly.I didn't say declarer would play that badly. You said "Try both ruffs by East or both ruffs by West", and I was explaining why that was impossible (given that it's a 4-4 fit). After a spade to our kinghe will know trumps don't split 3-2. He will not continue witha spade to the ace on trick 6. He will go to plan B. He willjust cash his 8 minor suit winners. If there are problems withcommunications, he may go down 2. He will not go downa telephone number.I didn't say that he was going for a telephone number. All I said was that declarer would go down (ie at least one down) on a heart lead, unless they were in a 5-4 fit and had two heart stops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Assume trumps are 4=1=4=4 around the table.You start with four trumps and they make 4♠.That means partner has nothing. They make 1 spade,1 heart and 8 minor suit tricks.Of course when my opponets bid game on 8 trumps containing neither of ♠AKQ I should expect them to have a combined 20 count lol Be real, partner has 1 card at most, unless it is a club honnor it will most likelly be useless after 4 rounds of spades, if it is ♥Q people will point at you after seeing 4♠ making on the traveller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinksy Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 My general rule is that X just says I had a good hand and was bidding to make unless that is impossible. So, a 3rd seat 4M or a 4M overcall followed by X is just a good hand (aka, I'm showing some defense). I might do those with a 16 count or whatever. I would never open 4M in first or second seat with a high HCP or high defense hand. Since that hand type is impossible, I play it as "I want to bid 5M" meaning I have a lot of extra offense. Would that go for lower level preempts, to? Eg in third seat would you open 2H with something like xxAQTxxxKJxQx and then X if LHO overcalls and it's passed back around to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Would that go for lower level preempts, to? Eg in third seat would you open 2H with something like xxAQTxxxKJxQx and then X if LHO overcalls and it's passed back around to you?Aside from the fact that this is a one opening bid, one would never open a 2-level preempt or a 3-level preempt and then double back in to show "extras." Sometimes one might make a four-level preempt with extras for tactical reasons. Those are the times when one might want to double back in to show that the 4 level opening was not purely preemptive. There are rare cases when one might double after opening a two- or three-level preempt. Those cases are lighter doubles, and ask partner to find your void suit for a ruff. It is hoped that the ruff on opening lead will be sufficient to defeat the contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinksy Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Aside from the fact that this is a one opening bid, To what end? I’m not interested in game, so I bid the contract I think I can make and let the opponents worry about whether it’s their hand or not. one would never open a 2-level preempt or a 3-level preempt and then double back in to show "extras." Obviously not in first or second, but that’s why I’m raising the question – opposite a passed hand, pre-empts can be somewhat heavier than usual. It wouldn’t have occurred to me to double for that reason before, but the situation seems comparable here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 I do occasionally open a third-seat weak two and then back in with a double, but a typical shape would be 15(43) or 1633. With a doubleton spade I wouldn't be bidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_20686 Posted November 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 I do occasionally open a third-seat weak two and then back in with a double, but a typical shape would be 15(43) or 1633. With a doubleton spade I wouldn't be bidding. Particularly if you play semi constructive weak twos then if it goes 2H (2S) P P and you have a ten count with 1633 shape its nice to be able to get back into this auction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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