What bids do you choose?

[silvr bull]

Vul vs. not, you hold:

 

♠T

♥K754

♦KQT94

♣AK8

 

1st question: In first seat, you open 1♦, partner bids 1♥, and RHO overcalls 1♠. What is your 2nd bid?

 

2nd question: If you bid 3♠ (which is a splinter by partnership agreement) and partner calls 4♦, what bid do you make next?

[JLOGIC]

3h, 3s is way too much. Now 4h over 4d I have a sub min and need a lot for slam

[Fluffy]

3♥ is plenty, 3♠ is an overbid.

 

If I decided to bid 3♠ my first reaction is to be consistent with myself and use keycard, but in retrospect if partner has 3 keycards he cannot construct any possible hand that doesn't make slam over splinter, or at least none that lacks club control so there is no real need to go berserk again.

[the hog]

3H looks good to me.

[lycier]

1-bid 3♥ is a good option.

2-supposing this hand is strong enough to bid 3♠ is a right auction ,and after pd rebid 4♦ I am willing to bid 5♥ to ask pd's trump quality.

[silvr bull]

there is no real need to go berserk again.

LOL. Maybe I should change my login name to Berserk Bull, or how about Bull in a China Shop? :D

 

I see a consensus that a jump to 3♥ is the best action for the first part. Do all (most?, some?) of you play that jump as forcing? My partnership style plays the jump as invitational. For the others who bid 3♥ as invitational, here is a follow up question. Is partner supposed to bid 4♥ with a hand like xxx Jxxxx Jxx xx, or maybe like xxx Qxxx xxx Qxx? Obviously those hands will not make a great game, but I would rather be in 4♥ than a part score with either of them, and with many more hands that partner will not see any extras over his initial 1♥ bid. If the jump to 3♥ is invitational, how do we get to the close games?

[helene_t]

3♥ is not forcing. It must be possible for opener to show a hand too strong for a simple raise yet not strong enough to force to game. If you want to force then you can usually splinter. And with a balanced 19 or a semibalanced 18-19, a 4♥ rebid is quite descriptive.

 

You don't want to be in game opposite xxx-Qxxx-xxx-Qxx since you will usually lose two trump tricks. It is true that partner will pass your 3♥ bid with more than that but then he will usually have some wasted values in spades.

[fromageGB]

Is partner supposed to bid 4♥ with a hand like xxx Jxxxx Jxx xx ...

Um, are you playing all weak openers start 1♣ so 1♦ = 16+ unlimited? If partner had this hand, I would expect an apology afterwards !

 

3♥ not forcing. If i wanted to force I would bid 2♠ (unspecified but strong) and then 3♥ over say 3♦.

[Phil]

For the others who bid 3♥ as invitational, here is a follow up question. Is partner supposed to bid 4♥ with a hand like xxx Jxxxx Jxx xx, or maybe like xxx Qxxx xxx Qxx? Obviously those hands will not make a great game, but I would rather be in 4♥ than a part score with either of them, and with many more hands that partner will not see any extras over his initial 1♥ bid. If the jump to 3♥ is invitational, how do we get to the close games?

 

Please don't troll. I have a sense you know perfectly well that 3♥ isn't forcing, and choosing some carefully crafted examples is not the way to advance your cause. I see that you have made a total of two posts, but you are clearly past Audrey Grant.

 

Even in your examples, your opponents have a bunch of spades, and a fair amount of HCP, so these examples are not representative.

 

If I bid 3♥ (which is obvious) and partner made a slam try with 4♦, RKC looks like a good next move.

[BunnyGo]

I must admit I'm a bit surprised. Why is everyone bidding 3♥ instead of 2♠? It seems to be better in that it:

 

a) uses much less bidding room

b) is similar strength showing.

[BillPatch]

I must admit I'm a bit surprised. Why is everyone bidding 3♥ instead of 2♠? It seems to be better in that it:

 

a) uses much less bidding room

b) is similar strength showing.

3♥ shows 4 card support, and more narrowly limits hand. After the 2♠ cue, not knowing fit, partner will show

stopper if he has it. Axx good for slam, KQx the dregs. If partner prefers ♦ you will know double fit, but little

else. After raise, if partner bids new suit you know it's a slam try, and immediately ask for key cards. Bidding space

saved by cuebidding wasted because of poorer limitation of your hand.

[silvr bull]

I see that you have made a total of two posts

Thanks for the warm welcome to an obvious forum newby. I learned about the forum a few days ago from BBO, and I first heard about BBO from a friend two months ago.

 

 

I have a sense you know perfectly well . . .

The truth is that I have little confidence in my guesses at modern bridge practices. Other than a few duplicate sessions several years ago, I have not played any bridge for decades before I heard about BBO. It is a major challenge for me to find out what new techniques I need to learn, and what bad old practices I should discard.

 

 

Please don't troll.

I sincerely apologize if the tone of my 2nd post upset your tender sensitivity. I hoped my first post would evolve into help with some of the subtleties of slam investigation after I forced to game in ♥. I was absolutely shocked that there was an almost unanimous agreement that my hand should only invite to game. If I held little more than ♥Jxxxx or ♥QJxx (my example was not crafted carefully enough, but thanks, Helene, for the helpful and friendly correction), and the ♣Q or a doubleton ♣, then I would pass the 1♦ opening without another thought. I expected partner’s 1♥ bid (instead of a pass over 1♦) to show more than those example hands that rate to have a good play for 4♥, so forcing the hand to game seemed clear to me before I posted here.

 

 

Even in your examples, your opponents have a bunch of spades, and a fair amount of HCP . . . If I bid 3♥ (which is obvious) . . .

Sorry, but it is still not obvious to me that my hand should only invite to game. It is also not obvious to me that I should give LHO an easy opportunity to bid 3♠ when I can prevent that show of support at the 3 level by forcing the hand to 4♥.

 

 

. . .and partner made a slam try with 4♦, RKC looks like a good next move

 

After partner cooperated with a 4♦ bid, I did ask for aces because I thought slam would be odds on if partner held ♦A and ♥Axxxx or better. Instead, partner held ♠xxx ♥QJ9x ♦Axxx ♣QT. Everyone here will be happy to know that karma prevailed to punish my berserk overbidding with a 5-0 trump split, so 5H doubled was down 2. The full hand is in this link:

http://s1308.beta.photobucket.com/user/silver_bull/media/Whatbid001.jpg.html

 

I will try to have a better subject for my next post in the forum. Thanks to everyone for all the replies.

[Cyberyeti]

I would bid game, I need a lot less than a 1♥ bid to make game excellent, say xxxx, QJ10xx, Jx, xx and some people would pass that over 1♦, and many hands that would reject the invite make it good eg xxxx, Axxx, Jxx, xx.

 

That said I'd probably do so by initially bidding 2♠ to see what partner does next, but I wouldn't be stopping below game.

[Codo]

Yes, partner with a 5 card suit and just working points will make 3 ♥ + 1 opposite most of us. So what? We won't be down in 5 ♥ if partner bids on with his maximum.... Give hin KQxx,Axxx,Jxx,xx and you may even lose 4 ♥ against a 4-1 heart break.

 

According to the advocats of the 3 ♠ or 4 ♥ bid, we better open this hand 2 ♣ because we may miss game if we don't... <_<

[ahydra]

I think I would bid 3H, except vul at imps where I'd try 4H. It is a 5-loser hand so game should theoretically be there (plus we have good shape, good controls and a nice diamond suit); but having just 15 hcps, if we bid 3S then partner might take us for more than we have, e.g. the same hand with ♦AKJTx.

 

ahydra

[Phil]

The full hand is in this link:

http://s1308.beta.photobucket.com/user/silver_bull/media/Whatbid001.jpg.html

 

 

Sorry for the brusque reply earlier. I usually wait until someone's 10th post before I accuse them of trolling.

 

The play in 4♠ looks kind of interesting. I looked up the movie (not hard to do) and there was a 620 and 650 NS.

 

One point that hasn't been made about the splinter is that it makes it very difficult later in the bidding. Your partner has a completely normal 4♦ call over 3♠, and now it feels like you need to take over since you have the club covers - you are endplayed in the bidding to an extent. So a hand that has gone from a minimum splinter, has now become a hand that forces to the 5 level!

 

Hopefully your partner understands the importance of bidding games too, and can move on over 3♥. If you made me bid game, I still wouldn't splinter, and would prefer four hearts, which implies more playing strength, and its less of a slam try (which you haven't got).

[mikeh]

Thanks for the warm welcome to an obvious forum newby. I learned about the forum a few days ago from BBO, and I first heard about BBO from a friend two months ago.

 

 

 

The truth is that I have little confidence in my guesses at modern bridge practices. Other than a few duplicate sessions several years ago, I have not played any bridge for decades before I heard about BBO. It is a major challenge for me to find out what new techniques I need to learn, and what bad old practices I should discard.

 

 

 

I was absolutely shocked that there was an almost unanimous agreement that my hand should only invite to game. ....so forcing the hand to game seemed clear to me before I posted here.

 

 

 

Sorry, but it is still not obvious to me that my hand should only invite to game. It is also not obvious to me that I should give LHO an easy opportunity to bid 3♠ when I can prevent that show of support at the 3 level by forcing the hand to 4♥.

 

 

 

 

After partner cooperated with a 4♦ bid, I did ask for aces because I thought slam would be odds on if partner held ♦A and ♥Axxxx or better.

 

Welcome to the forums and back to the game.

 

I am one of the 3♥ bidders and am not the least bit impressed by the fact that it is possible to construct hands on which partner will pass that call and game is good. That sort of 'magic card' construction can lead to terrible habits, whether you do it pessimistically or optimistically. Bridge bidding is imperfect, and it is necessary to accept that your methods, no matter how good, will not reach every good contract nor avoid every bad one.

 

As for preventing a show of support by splintering, that works only if you are able to remove the double card from LHO's bidding box...a move that is viewed with disapproval in most games.

 

And having forced to game, the notion that you must keycard over 4♦ means only that you have fooled not only your partner but also yourself into believing that you hold a powerhouse....in your case, you have fooled yourself into believing not only that you held a gf splinter but undisclosed extras, such that partner will underestimate your hand if you now bid 4♥.

 

Had you bid 4♥, your partner has a clear pass. Improve his hand to the point that slam is good, and he won't have a pass.

 

Going back to my first point, which is related to this last one, bidding is a game of communication, entailing the need to trust partner to properly evaluate his hand and to listen to how you have described yours. When you hold x Kxxx KQ10xx AKx and bid it in the same way as x AKxx KQJxx AJx, then you can expect that your partner will often go wrong. This can be by overbidding as much as the fear you have of underbidding.

 

While I recommend not creating magic hands during the auction, consider xxx Qxxxx Axx Kx. Opposite your actual hand, the 5 level will often be too high. Opposite the hand on which I suspect most posters would consider a splinter to be automatic, slam is virtually cold. Now, it may well be possible to splinter with both (I made these up in 5 seconds so they aren't carefully chosen) and reach the appropriate level, but I hope that you can see why it usually pays dividends to have a narrower range for splinters here than you seem to think best.

[Fluffy]

maybe the BIL is not the best site for this, but here it goes: 2♠ denies 4 hearts

[Cyberyeti]

maybe the BIL is not the best site for this, but here it goes: 2♠ denies 4 hearts

I think that's too strong, it usually denies 4♥, but 2♠-P-3♦-P-3♥-P-3N-P-4♥ says yes I do have 4.

 

To MikeH the question for me is "Are there more hands where 4♥ makes and partner won't bid it over 3♥ than there are that go wrong if I do something else ?" and for me the answer is yes.

 

Also to the OP you should have been able to sort your problem out with a serious/frivolous 3N over 3♠, and I wouldn't even consider 3♠ on that hand without playing one of them. I don't think you need to bid higher than 4♥ if 4♦ is non serious.

[mikeh]

I think that's too strong, it usually denies 4♥, but 2♠-P-3♦-P-3♥-P-3N-P-4♥ says yes I do have 4.

 

To MikeH the question for me is "Are there more hands where 4♥ makes and partner won't bid it over 3♥ than there are that go wrong if I do something else ?" and for me the answer is yes.

 

 

I understand your p.o.v., tho I would quibble and suggest that you also have to factor in the cost of going wrong. Missing a vul game costs 10 imps if you play at the 3 level. Going down at the 5-level, undoubled, costs 12 imps, so you need to factor in that difference.

 

I suggest it also matters how you play invites. As I explained in another recent thread, my style is to invite conservatively and accept aggressively. That means that I will accept 3♥ more often than do players who use a different philosophy.

 

I'd expect partner to accept with most 8 counts and 4 hearts, so long as he has no wastage in spades (he should see spade values as wasted even without the splinter because of the overcall) and with weaker hands with extra shape/secondary fit. So I miss some games. Tant pis.

[Cyberyeti]

I understand your p.o.v., tho I would quibble and suggest that you also have to factor in the cost of going wrong. Missing a vul game costs 10 imps if you play at the 3 level. Going down at the 5-level, undoubled, costs 12 imps, so you need to factor in that difference.

 

I suggest it also matters how you play invites. As I explained in another recent thread, my style is to invite conservatively and accept aggressively. That means that I will accept 3♥ more often than do players who use a different philosophy.

 

I'd expect partner to accept with most 8 counts and 4 hearts, so long as he has no wastage in spades (he should see spade values as wasted even without the splinter because of the overcall) and with weaker hands with extra shape/secondary fit. So I miss some games. Tant pis.

Your philosophy on invites means that you and I may well have legitimately different answers to the question I asked :)

 

Starting with 2♠ I wouldn't expect to wrongly get to the 5 level very often and would certainly be in 4♥ on this hand with the rest of the world.

[silvr bull]

Sorry for the brusque reply earlier. I usually wait until someone's 10th post before I accuse them of trolling.

Thanks for the warning, Phil. I will try to be more careful when I use up my “get out of troll” card in my next five posts. :D

 

 

One point that hasn't been made about the splinter is that it makes it very difficult later in the bidding. Your partner has a completely normal 4♦ call over 3♠, and now it feels like you need to take over since you have the club covers - you are endplayed in the bidding to an extent. So a hand that has gone from a minimum splinter, has now become a hand that forces to the 5 level!

Excellent point! This is precisely what happened during the auction. My 3♠ call was aggressive. It was almost like I turned on a treadmill and jumped on it with that call. Then partner’s 4♦ call kicked the treadmill speed up to high, and I didn’t know how to get off. The ♣ honors that partner couldn’t be sure I had were like handcuffs that kept me running on the treadmill. If I had this hand to bid over again, I would still force to game, but then partner would have to drag me kicking and screaming to get me past 4♥.

 

 

If you made me bid game, I still wouldn't splinter, and would prefer four hearts, which implies more playing strength, and its less of a slam try (which you haven't got).

I would like to hear any comments on the different connotations of the 3♠ splinter versus an immediate 4♥ call. Beyond the singleton or void shown by the splinter, does one imply more high cards while the other implies more distribution? Does a jump to 4♥ deny holding a singleton or void in ♠ (or in ♣ if I bid 4♣ over 1♠)? Which of the two more strongly suggests slam? On the actual hand with partner holding the ♦A, the 3♠ call helped to relieve the bidding pressure on partner since he can que his ♦A below game, and then happily pass if I had the good sense to stop at 4♥. If I jumped to 4♥ instead, partner would have a concern about having a key card that he had not been able to tell me about yet.

 

Guys (and Gals), I declare a unilateral cease fire on the question of inviting with 3♥ versus forcing to game. Even if I wanted to convince some of you that forcing to game is likely to win more points over the long run, I am unable to do so. I am however, as much a bull about this as I am about the price of silver, so it is time for me to agree to disagree and move on.

 

Welcome to the forums and back to the game.

Thanks. I am happy to have found my way back to a “home” that I left much too long ago. Thanks too for your thoughtful points about inviting versus forcing with my hand.

 

 

As for preventing a show of support by splintering, that works only if you are able to remove the double card from LHO's bidding box...a move that is viewed with disapproval in most games.

Please help me to understand this one a little better. If I held Ax or Kx of partner’s suit after my RHO splintered in it, I would double that call to tell partner that I am happy for him to lead his suit. My double of the splinter in partner’s bid suit would be lead directing, but it would not indicate a desire or more support for partner to bid higher in that suit. With xxxx in the splintered suit, in contrast, I would not double because I would not want to encourage partner to lead from an ace jack or a king jack high holding. With a suitable hand containing xxxx of partner’s suit, I would raise the suit to show good support, but I would not raise with Ax or Kx until partner has rebid the suit. Is it your view that a double of a splinter in partner’s suit is just a low budget call that shows the same support as raising that suit instead of lead directing?

[Fluffy]

3♥ invitational, 3♠ and 4♣ are splinters 4♦ is a solid suit and 4♥ is a shape hand that wants to play game opposite minimums but its not very interested in slam, I normally call this hands 6-4s and 7-4s/ I don't find 4♥ rdicoulous, better than 3♠ at least.

[Phil]

Thanks for the warning, Phil. I will try to be more careful when I use up my “get out of troll” card in my next five posts. :D

 

 

LOL; choose 'wisely' :P

 

I would like to hear any comments on the different connotations of the 3♠ splinter versus an immediate 4♥ call. Beyond the singleton or void shown by the splinter, does one imply more high cards while the other implies more distribution? Does a jump to 4♥ deny holding a singleton or void in ♠ (or in ♣ if I bid 4♣ over 1♠)? Which of the two more strongly suggests slam? On the actual hand with partner holding the ♦A, the 3♠ call helped to relieve the bidding pressure on partner since he can que his ♦A below game, and then happily pass if I had the good sense to stop at 4♥. If I jumped to 4♥ instead, partner would have a concern about having a key card that he had not been able to tell me about yet.

 

I think we had a discussion here (last year maybe?) where we talked about this exact subject. Not everyone agreed, but many thought the following:

 

- 1m - 1M - 3M showed two hand types:

 

a) The shapely raise to 3M - about 16-19 support points; x AKxx KQxx Kxxx; and

b) Balanced 17+/19

 

- A splinter (or a 6-4 jump) is reserved for hands above this range

- 4M shows a hand that you just can't stomach partner passing 3M. AQxx xxx AKxxxx void, but its still below the weight of a splinter.

 

Here's some of the rationale:

 

1. 1M over 1m hasn't promised "6 HCP" since the days Helen Sobel played. In certain situations its correct to bid 1M on a yarborough. Even though its likely partner does have values after 1m - p - 1M - p, there's no reason to get overboard.

 

2. By defining your splinters as rocks, slam bidding is a lot easier. Splinters hog a lot of room, and there's very little elbow room under four of our major. If you splinter on the hand you posted, and splinter with an Ace better, its really difficult for partner to evaluate adequately.

[JLOGIC]

Is partner supposed to bid 4♥ with a hand like xxx Jxxxx Jxx xx, or maybe like xxx Qxxx xxx Qxx? Obviously those hands will not make a great game, but I would rather be in 4♥ than a part score with either of them

 

No, he is supposed to pass, luckily game is awful opposite both of those. What does it even mean that "obviously those hands will not make a great game, but I'd rather be in game than partscore?"

 

Game is zero percent on the first one if they defend correctly (they can just get a diamond ruff). Even if they don't always defend correctly, game is extremely bad (2-2 hearts with the ace on and no diamond ruff).

 

Of course, if partner has this hand the opps have 23 HCP and 9 spades so they will probably be declaring spades. They may or may not make 4S after club club club ruff (depending if they can pitch losers on the clubs). Maybe 4H will have a good preemptive effect but that is not what 4H means.

 

Game is also horrible on the 2nd one. On a normal defense like spade spade you have to ruff in dummy. For starters you need 1 heart loser, so you will need the overcaller to have Ax (you cannot handle Ax in the other hand as dummy will get tapped twice). If you try crossing to the CQ and playing a heart to the king and a heart, congratulations, it's Ax. Now they play a club. You are locked in dummy (can't play a heart because you have a spade loser) and they still have a trump, you are going to lose the jack of diamonds or a ruff almost all of the time unless you are very lucky from this position.

 

Even when you tried to cherry pick 2 hands that partner will pass with (no spade wastage, all working minimum) you have in fact enhanced the case for 3H, you will not play a no play game.

 

Your 3S bid is just an overbid. 15 and a stiff is a textbook 3H bid, your hand is not strong enough to force to game. On top of that, if you splinter with this your partner will have difficulty deciding when to bid slam after you splinter since you might have a normal splinter (x KQxx KQT9x AKx), or you might have even more (x KQxx AKJxx AKx). It will be impossible to bid accurately opposite such a wide range of splinters.