bluecalm Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 [hv=pc=n&s=saj9ht983d87cak76&n=st4haj52dqt96cj53&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=p1dd1s2h2sppp]266|200[/hv] 1D is 5+ or 4-4-4-1 if that matters.As you can imagine letting them play 2S wasn't worth too many matchpoints while 3H was much better and pushing them to 3S worth near top.Anybody to blame here ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 I would replicate your bidding, sad that ♣J and ♦Q109 are worthless in defence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesleyC Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 No blame... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiddity Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 I think South should compete to 3♥. LOTT? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 can you elaborate your LOTT analysis for the ones with lesser knowledge in the subject? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiddity Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 South knows his side has an 8+ card heart fit. He strongly suspects the opps have an 8-card spade fit (no support double). He has just a single secondary honor in the enemy suits. His side is not vulnerable. I was mildly joking about LOTT but it does seem routine to me to compete with the South hand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Too bad 3H-X wasn't common. What would the blamestorming be then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 I think South should bid 3♥. He has four-card support when he might have had only three, and a doubleton diamond when he might have had three. Even if 3♥ is going two down, it's unlikely to get doubled, because the opponents don't have the quick tricks. Passing 2♠ is only right if both 2♠ and 3♥ are going down. That's quite a big position to take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Andy, it is mps, so why is a double unlikely? North knows that partner has 4 ♥ if he does not hold something like 3325 or 3316. How likely is that in the light of the bidding? So the 4. heart is of no big surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecalm Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 I think South should bid 3♥ This is what some of very good players I know suggest as well. I failed to that at the table. I like your post and now I think I made a mistake by passing. Too bad 3H-X wasn't common. What would the blamestorming be then? One down doubled is better than letting them make -110 :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 I think pass by both North and South is dubious. I think South should probably compete 3♥ and North should reopen with a DBL as well. Passing out 2♠ with the North hand looks worse to me at these colors. Poor matchpoint tactics. Rainer Herrmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 it is mps, so why is a double unlikely? Even at matchpoints, to double a partscore you have to think there's a reasonable chance of it going down. Our black-suit top cards make it less likely that the opponents have a penalty double. But anyway, why would South expect to go two down in 3♥? North knows that partner has 4 ♥ if he does not hold something like 3325 or 3316. How likely is that in the light of the bidding? So the 4. heart is of no big surprise.South doesn't know what North's spade holding is, so South doesn't know what North knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 The lack of red suits honours makes it more likely to get doubled...Why should south belive that he can make 3 ♥? He is semibalanced, N/S do not have the majority of the points, why should 3 ♥ make? South did double 1 ♦ and the bidding confirmed that he did not make a power double. The opps bidding tells north that south rates to have just three spades, so it is quite likely that he haves 4 hearts- or 3325, maybe 3316. South should know that north knows this. And south does not know norths spade length, but it is very safe to belive in one or two spades after the bidding so far. Which makes it likely that north will compete anyway. Of course it is possible that 3 ♥ from south leads to a much better score and it is obvious that it had been the winning choice here, but here I still do not buy your arguments. I had passed 2 ♠ out- but the north hand looks like a borderline hand for 3 ♥, not the south hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 North did his job with the 2H bid. South, on the second round, has an auto 3♥ bid. South can't really count total trumps. They could be 8/8, 9/8, 8/9, or 9/9. But he can apply something else from LC's fertile mind: avoid letting them play peacefully at the two-level. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Agree with 3♥ nonvul. It could make, but does not have to; off one doubled or off two undoubled are still good. I have come to feel that -110 defending 2M is usually a bad matchpoint score. I try to avoid it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 I know that many partnerships used to play that it is systemically not permitted to let the opponents play in 2 of a major in a competitive auction at matchpoints. I don't see much of that anymore (at least I don't see it marked on convention cards anymore as a partnership agreement), but while that style has its drawbacks, this hand is not one of them. Allowing the opponents to play in 2♠ on this hand is just bad matchpoint tactics. Even if you wind up going for a number in 3♥x, you are probably not scoring much worse than you are likely to score in 2♠. Who is to blame? Whoever passed out 2♠ (in this case, North). Sure, North doesn't have the values to bid again. But to require South to bid into a live auction without anything resembling an excuse is just not rational. North has an excuse - the form of scoring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 This is what some of very good players I know suggest as well. I failed to that at the table. I like your post and now I think I made a mistake by passing. One down doubled is better than letting them make -110 :) *** Yup, this hand looks a favorite to be losing 1xS +2xH +2xD +1xC. Oops that's 300! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 South knows his side has an 8+ card heart fit. He strongly suspects the opps have an 8-card spade fit (no support double). He has just a single secondary honor in the enemy suits. His side is not vulnerable. I was mildly joking about LOTT but it does seem routine to me to compete with the South hand. This does not really look like the elaboration of the LOTT which was requested! I'll do it then. The Law of Total Tricks postulates that the two-level is your most successful spot when you have an eight-card trump suit (with the points evenly divided). Therefore you should not allow your opponents to play at this "comfort level". Hence the aphorism "the three-level belongs to the opponents". When both sides have eight trumps it is usually a good idea to bid 3-over-2; it is not such a good idea to bid 3-over-3 unless you or your opponents have a ninth trump. Naturally the LOTT works only when it does; when it does not, lots of adjustments are applied -- mainly in retrospect. Sorry for posting this in the expert forum; it is where the question was asked and of course many non-experts read these threads too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Yes, but the only one in position to know N/S have an 8+ card fit and that E/W probably have an 8+ card fit...because he/she has only 3 spades and actually has 4 hearts with partner is SOUTH. That also seemed unneccesary to post in this forum; but suggesting North bid again shouldn't have been here either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 I know that many partnerships used to play that it is systemically not permitted to let the opponents play in 2 of a major in a competitive auction at matchpoints. I don't see much of that anymore (at least I don't see it marked on convention cards anymore as a partnership agreement), but while that style has its drawbacks, this hand is not one of them.General Bridge Knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 General Bridge Knowledge.There is a difference between knowing that it is a good idea to bid 3 over 2 (which you might occasionally choose not to do) and having a partnership agreement that you MUST bid 3 over 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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