What could we have done?

[straube]

We play a strong club system.

 

Opener's hand...

Axx KQx AKx AJxx

 

Responder's hand

KQ98x x Q98x xxx

 

The auction goes...

 

1C P 1H dbl.......... 16+, P, 5-7 hcps, showing hearts

1S 1N P 2C.......... artificial GF, nuisance bid, showing 4+ spades, clubs

dbl 2N dbl 3C........ penalty, nuisance bid, penalty, clubs again

dbl 3H P P............ penalty, natural, unable to double hearts, content

dbl.......................... penalty

 

This was imps all white.

 

Responder was unable to show 5 spades immediately, but could have rebid them after 2N. Should he have done so? Should opener have doubled 3H or bid 3N? We have no agreement, but what should the double of 2N mean? It's almost not worth having an agreement because this is such an infrequent situation. We did set them 2 but lost imps on the deal.

[ArtK78]

Are you saying that the 1♥ response showed 5-7 HCP and nothing else? Then responder should show spades over the 1NT call.

 

Are you saying that the pass over 1NT showed spades? Then responder should bid 3♦ over 2NT.

 

In any strong club auction, the partnership should strive to show their suits as soon as possible. Otherwise you will be grasping at straws in a competitive auction without enough information to figure out where you should be playing the hand.

[straube]

Are you saying that the 1♥ response showed 5-7 HCP and nothing else? Then responder should show spades over the 1NT call.

 

Are you saying that the pass over 1NT showed spades? Then responder should bid 3♦ over 2NT.

 

In any strong club auction, the partnership should strive to show their suits as soon as possible. Otherwise you will be grasping at straws in a competitive auction without enough information to figure out where you should be playing the hand.

 

1h showed 5-7 and nothing else. Pass of 1N was systemic and showed four or more spades. Thanks.

[the hog]

1h showed 5-7 and nothing else. snipped

 

Sorry to say this, but that is a very poor method. M-B gave this up as a bad joke after trying it for a little while. Better is to play limited responses and one gf response; at least then you know where you are.

[Cyberyeti]

I think with a nice 7 count with all the points in the long suits and nice intermediates, I'd treat the 2 98s as a jack and bid as if I had an 8 count provided I can do that naturally in spades. Also if the pass over 1N shows 4+ spades, should you (analogous to 1x-X-1♠-X and 1x-X-1♠-2♠) have one bid for 4 spades and a different one for more ?

[straube]

I think with a nice 7 count with all the points in the long suits and nice intermediates, I'd treat the 2 98s as a jack and bid as if I had an 8 count provided I can do that naturally in spades. Also if the pass over 1N shows 4+ spades, should you (analogous to 1x-X-1♠-X and 1x-X-1♠-2♠) have one bid for 4 spades and a different one for more ?

 

The correct start for us is 1H because it says I have between 2 and 4 queen points (Q=1, K=2, A=3) and I don't want to mislead pd when he later tries to figure out which cards I have for slam purposes. I can always force game later anyway.

 

Also, pd's 1S bid starts a relay auction and my pass of 1N handles all of the four+ spad hands. This is basically standard symmetric responses starting 2 steps higher.

 

I'm very aware of the pros and cons vs Moscito and I'm not sure that it is theoretically sound, but it seems to work very well for us and I think I defended it pretty well in prior threads. Really, a similar situation could occur after say...

 

1C P 1H dbl.....where 1H is GF spades

1S 2N

 

I would be asking the same question pretty much. Do I double 2N? do I pass? Do I bid 3D or 3S?

[Fluffy]

I think you are overreacting, you got +300 over a long complicated auction wich is fine

 

In my opinion the guy who could do more is responder: he heard partner doubling clubs for penalty at the 2 level already, and he has 3 of them, he knows RHO doesn't have any clubs and partner's hand primary has clubs. Its hard to imagine partner having 5 hearts, and if he has 4, and declarer is void in clubs the bidding strongly suggest 7-1 hearts for them wich should be very comfortable.

 

This all needs table feelin, if you trust your RHO to have been playing with the NT bids before bidding 3♥ I think you can give up to penalty double with responder's hand. But trusting opps is not always a good idea.

[straube]

thx Fluffy. Makes sense.

[Cyberyeti]

The correct start for us is 1H because it says I have between 2 and 4 queen points (Q=1, K=2, A=3) and I don't want to mislead pd when he later tries to figure out which cards I have for slam purposes. I can always force game later anyway.

 

Fair enough, the explanation above was 5-7, and I'd bend that, but it's too risky using QP.

Also, pd's 1S bid starts a relay auction and my pass of 1N handles all of the four+ spad hands. This is basically standard symmetric responses starting 2 steps higher.

 

This is the bit I really don't like (trying to play relays in competition), how are you going to enjoy trying to bid this having shown no suits, just a GF if opp bids a simple 3♥ rather than 1N ? I think showing a "2N opener" (and some other hand types that can be shown with one bid) in this auction and not relaying would be a big winner overall and let partner make sensible decisions. Not knowing what other bids you already need for other things, I can't say what the bid to do that would be.

 

Did the pass showing 4+ spades guarantee that spades were the longest suit, or do you do this with 4 spades and 4/5/6 diamonds on the side ?

 

Art's quote sums it up:

In any strong club auction, the partnership should strive to show their suits as soon as possible. Otherwise you will be grasping at straws in a competitive auction without enough information to figure out where you should be playing the hand.

[hrothgar]

Responder was unable to show 5 spades immediately, but could have rebid them after 2N. Should he have done so? Should opener have doubled 3H or bid 3N? We have no agreement, but what should the double of 2N mean? It's almost not worth having an agreement because this is such an infrequent situation. We did set them 2 but lost imps on the deal.

 

I seem to recall preaching the virtues of a response system that devotes much more bidding space to immediately clarifying semi positive hand patterns. It even includes responses that permit you to immediately show a semi positive with 5+ spades and (4+ Clubs or 4+ Hearts)

 

Now that I think about it, we use a 2C bid to show such a hand which forces the opponents to come in at the two level if they want to introduce hearts.

[WesleyC]

Regarding your system, I think 1H = Semi-balanced 5-7 is playable, but you should probably have some specific bids to handle shapely semi-positive hands like this one.

 

With no values in the opponents suits, I don't like responder's double of 2NT. The rest of the auction seems reasonable.

 

Just for the record, I wouldn't even be upset about doubling them in 3H on these two hands. Sometimes its not about the IMPs, its about sending a message.

[straube]

 

Did the pass showing 4+ spades guarantee that spades were the longest suit, or do you do this with 4 spades and 4/5/6 diamonds on the side ?

 

 

We could have 4/5/6 diamonds on the side...which is why I'd be reluctant to bid 3D over 2N...it might sound to pd like I have longer diamonds than spades when the opposite is true.

[Cyberyeti]

We could have 4/5/6 diamonds on the side...which is why I'd be reluctant to bid 3D over 2N...it might sound to pd like I have longer diamonds than spades when the opposite is true.

I sort of guessed you were going to say this, as it explained the lack of 3♦ bid.

 

I think you're putting way too much strain on your system with the catchall bids and would be a lot better taking a load of hands out of 1♥ and the 1♠ rebid certainly as soon as opps open their mouths and possibly before.

 

Can you give an idea what the alternatives to 1♥ and over that and a double 1♠ are used for, then possibly we can suggest improvements. Also I'd strongly recommend showing longest suit first rather than just 4+♠ if you want to try to sort the auction out once opps bid again.

[straube]

Not sure what you're asking for. Our basic structure is...

 

1D-5+ QPs, unbal with major OR bal

.....now either hand may describe a shapely pattern (reverse relays)

1H-2-4 QPs, any shape

.....1S-GF relay

.....1N-17-18 or so

.....2C-staymanish

.....2D-transfer

.....2H-transfer

.....etc

1S-0-1 QPs (2 if very bad)

1N-5+ QPs, both majors

2C-5+ QPs, both minors

etc-GF with minors

 

I think this works very well for us. Breaking out of relays in a competitive auction is an idea we've considered and we do so whenever the opponents take up more than 2 spaces of room, but lots of times they'll make a peep (double or 1 or 2 steps) and then not interfere further.

 

My experience is that we have a lot more uncontested auctions than one might imagine. When one uses relays, occasionally this sort of thing happens. Also Moscito would do far better on this particular hand, but not so well on others.

[Cyberyeti]

Was wondering what XX and pass were over the double of 1♥ among other things. I feel you could use the extra space afforded by one or both of them to actually describe your hand in one bid and show a balanced hand too good for 1N.

[straube]

Was wondering what XX and pass were over the double of 1♥ among other things. I feel you could use the extra space afforded by one or both of them to actually describe your hand in one bid and show a balanced hand too good for 1N.

 

I see. Redouble would be business. Don't think we've discussed pass here, but I'd probably take it as a mild suggestion to play. Either redouble or pass takes us out of system and generally we try to stay in system.

 

I suppose we could design better, but our system is complicated already and it usually behooves us to stay in system and not try to take advantage of these occasional opportunities.

[ArtK78]

I strongly recommend that you bid naturally over suit intervention, leaving double and cue bids to show different types of positive or semi-positive hands without a primary suit and pass to show a negative response.

 

As I said earlier, it is important to bid your suits naturally as soon as possible after a strong club opening once the auction becomes competitive.

 

As for intervening doubles, they can be ignored except that some rational meaning should be ascribed to pass and redouble. If you are currently using step responses to your 1♣ opening, double gives you more room as you have two additional calls available.

[Cyberyeti]

I see. Redouble would be business. Don't think we've discussed pass here, but I'd probably take it as a mild suggestion to play. Either redouble or pass takes us out of system and generally we try to stay in system.

 

I suppose we could design better, but our system is complicated already and it usually behooves us to stay in system and not try to take advantage of these occasional opportunities.

The sort of thing I was thinking was that you could play XX as suggestion to play, pass replacing 1N and 1N bigger balanced.

 

My gut instinct is to agree with pretty much everything Art says, I've played strong club systems, but only pretty natural ones so I'm no expert on the relay stuff.

 

I do know that if I was playing against you, once I worked out what you were playing, you would get almost no unopposed 1♣ auctions against me when I wasn't vulnerable.

[Fluffy]

I strongly recommend that you bid naturally over suit intervention, leaving double and cue bids to show different types of positive or semi-positive hands without a primary suit and pass to show a negative response.

They only bid artificial to the point where there was a suit intervention :)

[straube]

I strongly recommend that you bid naturally over suit intervention, leaving double and cue bids to show different types of positive or semi-positive hands without a primary suit and pass to show a negative response.

 

As I said earlier, it is important to bid your suits naturally as soon as possible after a strong club opening once the auction becomes competitive.

 

As for intervening doubles, they can be ignored except that some rational meaning should be ascribed to pass and redouble. If you are currently using step responses to your 1♣ opening, double gives you more room as you have two additional calls available.

 

Well, we stay in system through 1H interference anyway. So does awm btw and he has lots more experience. If you've spent the time developing relays, you probably like them enough not to depart from them at such low level interference. Quite frequently, we'll hear a 1D or 1H overcall and that's the end of the interference. We'd talked about pass and double giving us more room for relays, but the mental cost of counting steps is not worth it for us.

[straube]

I do know that if I was playing against you, once I worked out what you were playing, you would get almost no unopposed 1♣ auctions against me when I wasn't vulnerable.

 

That's good strategy. Of course, if you're bidding bad 4-cd suits, your partner won't be able to raise and it's that raise that really disrupts relays. So there's a tradeoff. We once had LHO introduce a 3-cd spade suit and that went for a number after his partner raised.

 

I think relay structures are more vulnerable than say Precision structures to interference, but we're not that bad. As much as our 1H all-pattern semipositive is critized, the fact that we separate double negative hands from semipositive hands helps a lot if RHO intervenes. It actually hurts our uncontested auction a bit and that's a price we're willing to pay.

[jogs]

I think relay structures are more vulnerable than say Precision structures to interference, but we're not that bad. As much as our 1H all-pattern semipositive is critized, the fact that we separate double negative hands from semipositive hands helps a lot if RHO intervenes. It actually hurts our uncontested auction a bit and that's a price we're willing to pay.

 

I think you have overvalued HCPs. HCP is just one of many variables used for finding the best contract. You need to show your side's suit much sooner. Opponents are given a free reign to interfere with your auctions. The theory is it is usually you hand when you open 1♣. Opponents are less interested in finding their best spot than denying you your best contract.

[straube]

I think you have overvalued HCPs. HCP is just one of many variables used for finding the best contract. You need to show your side's suit much sooner. Opponents are given a free reign to interfere with your auctions. The theory is it is usually you hand when you open 1♣. Opponents are less interested in finding their best spot than denying you your best contract.

 

So what do you think of 1C P 1D as 0-7 any shape? Do you favor a Moscito system?

[dake50]

With Spades, let a positive be lower bottom, say working AQ.

With a minor positive starts at a good 9.

Stretch to get spades into the auction modifies those 1H:5-7 to not 7points with 5+spades.