switching from 4+ to 2+ diamond

[Fluffy]

We have decided to move to the more popular 1♦ 2+ cards, on a 14-16 NT context and now want advices on when to support.

For example if the bidding goes: 1♦-(1♠)-

I suspect some hands that previously bid 2♠ with 4♦ now will have to double, or perhaps bid 2♣ with 4+? I am not sure.

 

Also inverted minors, should they be made with only 5 cards?, what structure do you recomend after 1♦-2♣?

 

I have decided to raise 1♦-1♠ on 3 cards when hand contains a singleton, does this mean I should rebid 1NT with 13(54) on the 11-13 range? might 1♦-1♠-2♦ be 5 cards?

 

Also over 1♦-1♥ is it better to play walsh or just rebid 1♠ with all hands with 4 spades?

[Fluffy]

oops wrong forum, this was for the non-natural system. This is an strong club 14-16 NT, 5cM context with 2♦ being multi

[MickyB]

One option is to play 1D:2C as 5+diamonds any strength [now 2D = weak NT, others = nat unbal with diamonds] and 1D:2D as GF clubs or 3343 [continuations natural].

 

13(54) should rebid 2C IMO, 1453 is more interesting, it doesn't feel right to me to rebid 2C on it when partner will pass with 3C2D but I've seen Joe Grue do it. I'd pick between 1NT and 2D. 2D will have six cards 98% of the time.

 

Rebid 1S on all hands with four spades. In standard methods I prefer to rebid 1NT because the alternative is rebidding 1S to show 11-18, but in Precision it's pretty huge to be able to float 1S any time you have three spades and 0-9 points, especially as you might respond light just because you don't want to play in a 2-2 diamond fit.

 

I'm happy to bid 1D-(1S)-2S with GF hands with four diamonds. Invitational hands are more of an issue. BTW play 1D (1M) 3M as asking partner to bid 3NT, better it be from partner's side.

Edited October 31, 2012 by MickyB

[MickyB]

Also, my preference is to play 1D (1H) 1S as 5+ spades if 1D shows 4+cards, but as 4+ spades [or better still, 0-3 spades] if 1D shows 2+cards. This is because shapes like (32)44 can raise to 2D iff the 1D opening is natural.

[Zelandakh]

I have seen quite a few different structures. One interesting one is MAF with a 2♣ response as a general GF and 2♦ as an invitational hand without a major. Another one is for a 1♥ response to be a relay with a 1♠ response weak, natural; a 1NT response weak with hearts; and a 2♣ response weak with neither major (pass/correct). I believe Adam plays the 1♥ response as natural or strong and straube plays it as natural or GF balanced, so lots of options are there.

[Fluffy]

we used to play 1♥ as either nat of gf, but we are about to drop it now 1♦ has too many possible shapes, not sure about this yet.

 

Nobody has comented yet on doubles with/without hearts, I am scared of (32)44 hands when opps overcall 1or 2 spades, is it correct to double there?

[MickyB]

After 1D-(2S): Double on 2344 9-count, pass on 3244 9-count, cue 3S on GFs. You should be playing some form of transfer leb/rubensohl on this sequence.

 

After 1D-(1S): Double on 2344 8-count, 1NT or maybe pass on 3244 8-count. Bal GFs without four hearts can often bid 1D (1S) 3S.

[MickyB]

oops wrong forum, this was for the non-natural system.

 

You got my hopes up that you were switching to four-card club, prepared diamond :(

[Zelandakh]

One option over a 1♠ overcall might be for X to be hearts, 1NT to be a request for Opener to bid their minor, 2♣ to show invite or better with one minor, and 2♦ to be invite or better with both minors. A second option is for X to be hearts or invitational, 2♣ to be non-forcing and 2♦ covers the rest. Otherwise, what Micky said works too and is simpler. What is best might depends on what hands are included in the 1♦ opening - KenRexford-style is surely different from standard Precision. Anyone know what Meckwell or Grepson play here?

[Fluffy]

in my 1♦ all balanced 11-13 no 5cM, and umbalanced hands with 4+♦ including 4♦-5♣ but no 5M-6♦ hands in the 11-15 range.

[SteveMoe]

From Meckwell Lite notes (Walter BigTrain Johnson)

Here's what they say about the 1♦ opening:

(Formatting lost on pasting - no solution)

 

NEBULOUS DIAMOND OPENING

1 ♦ Opening: 10+-15, usually 2+D, but might be the singleton DK (possibly even the A or Q).

 

Responses to 1 ♦

1♦- 1♥: 4+card suit, may be light.

1♠: 4+card suit, may be light.

2♣: Natural, not GF if you rebid 3♣ (can be 2-suited in minors with GF+ values).

2♦: Usually 5+D, one round force, values but not GF if you rebid 3♣ or 3♦.

1N: BAL, 7-11-.

2N: BAL, 11+ to 13-.

3N: BAL, 13-16.

2♥: 5S & 4+H, less than invitational values.

2♠: 5S & 4+H, invitational (if 5422, about 10++-12).

3♣: Both minors (usually 54+), up to ~9 HCP.

3♦: Weak with usually 6+D (RARELY a good 5-carder).

3M: Preemptive.

4m: NAT, 7+card suit, very suit-oriented, i.e, were not missing a 3NT game.

4M: NAT, no slam interest.

 

Reverse Flannery Responses

1♦-2♥ 1♦-2♠

2N(ask)-3♣: 5-4 minimum. 2N: Natural, GI

3♦: 5-4 maximum (~8-10-). 3♣(Ask)-3♦: All 5-4.

3♥: 5-5 minimum. 3♥: 5-5 minimum (~9-10).

3♠: 5-5 maximum (~8-9). 3♠: 5-5 maximum (~10-12).

1♦-2♠ 1♦-2♠

3♣-3♦ 3♠: Strongest game try.

3♥: Invites game, if maximum.

3♠: Lighter game try, R needs super-max to bid game.

 

Continuations after 1♦-2m

1♦-2minor: Not GF if you rebid the minor.

2♥: ART, BALANCED 11-13 HCP (at least, those without 5-card support).

2N: 4441 WITH SNEAK CLUB (doesnt apply after 1♦-2♦ - open 2♦ with that shape).

3L raise: Balanced with 5FIT.

3M: Splinter, 4+fit.

 

1♦-2m

2♥-3N: Wants to play from that side.

2♠: Relay to 2NT.

2N-3N: Wants to play from openers side!

 

 

Continuations after 2♥ with one-suited minor GF

After 2/1 response in minor, a 2♠ relay followed by a rebid of the minor shows slam interest. 3NT by

opener shows little or no interest. In a very few cases, opener may jump to 5m to show no interest with

3NT being, obviously, a less safe contract. Note that bidding your minor directly over 2♥ is NF…

1♦-2♣ 1♦-2♦

2♥-3♣: NF. 2♥-3♣,3♦: NF.

1♦-2♣ 1♦-2♦

2♥-2♠ 2♥-2♠

2N-3♣ 2N-3♦: GF.

3♦: S1P, ART slam interest. 3♥: Q, cooperating.

3N: Little or no interest. -4♥: RKC-D.

1♦-2♣

2♥-2♠

2N-4♦: RKC-C.

 

Minor 2-suiters

With at least 5-5 in the minors, ALL GF hands start with 2♣ and follow with 3♦ (reverse). Hands are usually

UNBALANCED, but a concentrated 22(54) hand may qualify (can be 5-4+ either way). EXCEPTION: Over a 2♥

rebid (ART BAL), same treatment as 1-suit GF. Here, 1st minor is the longer suit (minors clarified).

1♦-2♦

2♥-3♣: INVITATIONAL with (54)+ minors.

1♦-2♣

2♥-3♦: GF with (usually) 55+ minors. Shows a GOOD hand, not just shape.

1♦-2♣ 1♦-2♦

2♥-2♠ 2♥-2♠

2N-3♦: GF, C longer than D. 2N-3♣: GF, D longer than C.

 

Continuations after an invitational 3♣

1♦-2♦

2♥-3♣

P: Preference to play C.

3♦: Preference to play D.

3M: Game interest, shows values in THAT Major. Responder will bid 3NT if short in that Major or bid 4

of longest minor with shortness in the OTHER Major.

KQJ10 x KQJ10 Axx

10xx AJx 10xx x

QJxx K10xx QJxx K10xx

Ax KJxxx Ax KJxxx

1♦ 2♦ 1♦ 2♦

2♥ 3♣ 2♥ 3♣

3♠ 3N: Short S. 3♠ 4♣: Showing 5C, short H.

5♦(4♠ proposing a 4-3, is also possible)

 

 

Continuations after 3♦

1♦-2♣

2N-3♦

4♦: Good slam hand.

3♥: Values in H, responder bids 3NT if H short, longer minor if S short (if C, suit playable opposite a stiff).

3♠: Values in S, responder bids 3NT if S short, longer minor if H short (ditto).

AQ10x x KQ8x Jxx

Qxxx KJx Jxx x

Qxx Kxxx AQx KJ9xx

Kx AQJ10x 10xx AQJx

1♦ 2♣ 1♦ 2♦

2♥ 3♦ 2♥ 3♣

3N: H/S stopped. 3♠: S values. 4♦: Short H, 5+D.

5♦ or pass

NOTE: A balanced hand, 22(54), is fine to treat as a 2-suit GF when concentrated and strong enough to

consider a high-level minor suit contract. However, it must be a good hand (17+ HCP).

4-6 Major-minor hands

With 4M-5m and GF values, ALWAYS bid the Major first. Bidding 2♣ or 2♦ immediately followed

by 3M shows 6-4 GF. However, a GOOD (re: concentrated) 4-5 may qualify… AKxx/x/Kxx/AKJxx.

1♦-2♣ 1♦-2♦

2♥-3♥: Shows 6C and 4 H, GF. 2♥-3♠: Shows 6D and 4S, GF.

 

Sequences after 1-level Major response

After a ONE-level Major response, a 2♣ rebid shows the classic shape hand. Opener will ALWAYS BE, with 3

exceptions, at least 5-4 in the minors. The exceptions are 2♣ rebids after a 1♠ response. These can be 1-4-4-4,

1-4-5-3 or 1-4-3-5. A 1NT rebid by opener ALWAYS PROMISES at least TWO in responders M. A 4441 is

barred from rebidding 1NT.

 

 

1♦-1♥

1♠: All hands with 4S, EVEN 4333.

1N: BAL 11-13, denies 4S.

2♣: Classic shape, at least 5-4 in minors, denies 4S.

2♦: 6+D.

2♥: Promises a 4fit.

 

1♦-1♠

2♠: Usually 4-card support, BUT can be 3-4-5-1. With 3-4-6-0, rebid 2♦.

2♠: Natural

2N: Balanced maximum, with 6+D (or GREAT 5).

3♣: Maximum shaped hand, but NF since opener is limited.

 

1♦-1♠

2♥: Also maximum shaped hand, NF (5/6 or 5/7). Only 5-4 allowed contains 3S.

2N: Lebensohl denies 5S.

2♠: 5+S, forcing one round, not necessarily strong.

3♦: NAT 6+D, invitational.

3♥: Invitational, shapely 4+fit.

3♠,4♣: Splinter raise.

 

Other 1♦ Sequences

1♦-1♠

3♣: Maximum shape hand, but NON-FORCING since opener is limited.

 

1♦-1♠

3♦-3♠: FORCING, opener can raise with 2S.

 

1♦-1♠

1N-2♣: Relay to 2♦ for invitational sequence.

 

2♦: ART GF.

 

1♦-1♠

2♣: 54+ minors or any EIGHT minors w/4H (1NT rebid is BARRED, except in competition).

1♦-1♥-X(1♠)-P

1N: Can have a stiff S here.

1♦-1♠

2♣-2♦: Preference, as in standard. Always pref to 2♦ over 2♣ with equal minor length.

2♥: Opener has only 3♦ (1-4-3-5). Responder places contract.

1♦-1♠

2♣-2♥: ART, 4th suit forcing to game.

3♥: All hands with 4H; other bids are natural denying 4♥.

1♦-1M

2♦-2OM: ART GF (3rd suit forcing to game).

3♥: 55+, GF.

 

1♦-1♥

1N-2♠: NAT 5-6, FORCING.

 

1♦-1♥

2♦-3♠: 5-6+, GF. NO SPLINTER JUMPS BY MAJOR RESPONDER EXCEPT TO 4m.

 

1♦-1♥

1♠-4♦: Splinter raise for S. Openers D bid is considered artificial since may only have 2.

 

SPECIAL SEQUENCES AFTER COMPETITION

After opponents double

When the opponents double 1♦, transfer sequences are used. HCP ranges follow standard practice…

1♦-X-XX: 4+H.

1♥: 4+S.

1♠: BAL, 7-11-.

1N: 2♣ response, NF! Systems off!

2♣: Good 6-card suit, NT interest from openers side.

2♦: 5+D, NF.

2NT: CLUBS, weak or GF.

3♣: (Usually) 5C & 4+D, NF.

3♦: 6+D, weak.

3♥,3♠: Sneak/Void, GF w/54+ minors or GF w/ just a D suit.

P-f-2/3♦: NAT 5+D, invitational.

P-f-Q: 5+D, GF.

 

After opponents 2♣ ot 3 ♣

When the opponents compete to either 2,3♣, transfers are on. Two level Major transfers can be

weak-ish. Two level ♦ transfers are invitational or better. Three level transfers are better. Applies

only when responder is an UNPASSED hand.

1♦-2♣-2♦: 5+H, could be weakish.

2♠: 5+D, GI+.

1♦-2♣-2♥-P

2♠: Shows a hand that would pass 2♠ NF. Does NOT promise 3fit.

2N: Invitational, as you would bid if partner had bid 2♠.

3♦: NAT, again as you would bid as if partner had bid 2♠.

3♣: Either a good S raise, or looking for a C stopper.

Qx KJxxx Axx Jxx

AJxx Kx KJxx A10xxxx

KQxx J10xx Axx Kx

xxx xx xxx xx

1♦ (2♣) 2♥: 5+S. This is a minimum. 1♦ (2♣) 2♦: 5+H.

2♠ P: Happy to find a resting place. 3♥: Not the best. P: Close decision.

 

Axx xx

KJxx AQ109xx

A10xx xxx

xx xx

1♦ (2♣) 2♦

3♣: Best hand. 3♥: Weak.

Over acceptance, if responder bids again, he is inviting game. A new suit is FORCING one round.

1♦-2♣-2♠: GI+ w/D.

3♦ 3♥, 3♠: 4-card suit, 5+D, forcing one round.

AJxx Kxxx AJxx Kx

Kxx Ax Kxx Axxx

Kxx AJ9xxx Kxx AJ9xxx

xxx x xxx x

1♦ (2♣) 2♠ 1♦ (2♣) 2♠

3♦ 3♠: 4S. 3♦ 3♥

4♠ 4♦: NF.

 

Opponents compete to 2M: openers minors unclarified

If they compete to 2♥ or 2♠, 2NT is artificial, asking opener to pick a minor if opener has NOT

CLARIFIED his minor suit lengths…

1♦-P-1♥-1♠

P: Denies 3H, minor suits not clarified.

1N: Minor suits not clarified.

X: Support X, minor suits not clarified.

2♠-2N: Takeout for a minor. Might be a hand planning to sign off in 3♦, 3♥ or even 4♣.

Responders DIRECT 3-level bids are INVITATIONAL…

1♦-P-1♥-1♠

P -2♠-X: Cards, 11+ HCP.

2N: Asks minor preference.

3L: NAT, invitational.

With a GF or a BAL GI, responder can start with a X of 2 Major, showing cards (11+ HCP)…

1♦-P-1♥-1♠

P -2♠-X: Cards, 11+ HCP. Opener can pass with 4 good ♠, bid 3NT, or bid some partial. If

responder follows with a suit bid at the 3-level, that is GF.

1♦-P -1♥-1♠

P -2♠-X -P

2N -P-3♣: NAT, GF.

If GF and short in the overcalled suit, responder can Q (usually void)…

1♦- P -1♥-1♠

2♣-2♠- X - P

3♠: GF, short in S.

 

 

If the response was 1NT, ANY bid of 2NT when the opponents bid 2M is takeout for the minors, but NF…

1♦-P-1N-2♠

2N: 44+ in minors. Please bid one if you have a 4+card minor, otherwise PASS.

1♦-P-1N-2♠

2N: 44+ minors, NF.

3♣: 54+ minors, demands playing in a minor. Pass or correct to D.

 

Responder bids both minors

When responder bids 2♣ over opponents Major overcall, which is raised and opener bids 2NT or

passes, 3♦ by responder is GF, showing both minors. Any subsequent bid of 5NT by responder is

pick a minor slam. Whenever responder bids ♣ followed by ♦, that is GF with minors (5/4 or 5/5)…

1♦-1♠-2♣-2♠

P - P - 3♦: Forcing, both minors (5-4+ either way).

3N- P - 5N: Pick a minor slam.

 

Opponents compete to 2M: openers minors clarified

When opener rebids 2♣ or 2♦, Opener HAS clarified his minor suit lengths. So, 2NT over 2M is

LEBENSOHL. Other bids are the same as when minors have not been clarified…

1♦-P-1♥-1♠

2♣-2♠-2N: Lebensohl, relay to 3♣.

3♣ -P- P: To play.

3♦: To play.

3♥: To compete to 3♥.

1♦-P-1♥-1♠

2♦-2♠-3♣: Invite.

3♦: Invite.

3♥: Invite.

1♦-P-1♥-1♠

2♣-2♠-X: Cards (11+ HCP).

3♠: GF, short in S (usually void).

 

CONTINUATIONS AFTER MAJOR RAISES

When responders Major is raised, hands with game interest start with the artificial ask of 2NT.

1♦-1♥

2♥-2N: Artificial (random) game try.

S1: Prime minimum.

S2: Soft maximum.

3♥: Rejection, crappy minimum.

4♥: Acceptance, good hand.

Raises of 1♥ always promise 4. However, when 1♠ is raised, opener can have 3 when exactly 3-4-5-1.

15

Direct bids to the 3-level over the raise are NAT and indicate slam interest.

1♦-1♠

2♠-3♦: GF, slam interest… KQx/AQJxx/AQxx/x

 

SOME 1♦ COMPETITIVE RULES

1♦-1♠-2♥-2♠

P- P - X : Re-opening, but NOT GF and short in S.

3♠: Since X is available, GF and short in S (tends to be a void).

3♦: D raise, NF but values.

3♣: New suits after a competitive 2/1 are Forcing One Round.

Remember I: Clubs followed by D is GF. Diamonds followed by ♣ is invitational (can be 54+ either way).

1♦-1♥-2♣-2♥ 1♦-1♥-2♣-2♥(or pass)

P- P - 3♦: GF… Kxx/x/AJxx/AJ10xx 3♣- P - 3♦: GF!

vs

1♦-1♥-2♦-X

P - P- 3♣: Invitational either suit can be longer in either auction.

Remember II: Double of direct bid and raise is not penalty.

1♦-1♥-2♣-3♥

P - P - X: NOT penalty but Cards. Partner might pass with H stack.

3♠: Forcing, and natural (but not necessarily 4+S)… Qxx/ void/QJxx/AQxxxx.

[barmar]

oops wrong forum, this was for the non-natural system.

Fixed.

[straube]

I think 1D as 0+ lends itself much better to relays (not sure if you're using that) in conjunction with an opening 2D as 6+ diamonds. That 2D opening handles many more hand patterns than a 2D (or 2H opening) that shows 3-suited short diamonds and consequently the 1D is underloaded and more manageable. I like awm's openings very much which are...

 

1D-11-13 balanced or various without 5M or 6m

1M-5+

1N-14-16

2C-6C

2D-6D

 

and we do similarly with

 

1D-11-13 balanced or various without 5M or 6m except it can be 4M/6D

1M-5+

1N-14-16

2C-6C, not 4H

2D-6D, not 4M

2N-6C, 4H

 

The other thing is that opening 1D with 0+ means that you don't need to decide whether to raise diamonds or not; instead, responder is the one who starts to describe his holding.

[MickyB]

Interesting that Meckwell Lite has 1D:1S, 2C as 4-4/5-4/5-3 either way. I'd be inclined to remove the 6D4C/5D3C hands from the 2C rebid and then pass 2C with equal length, rather than having to guess which is the 5-3 and which is the 3-3 when I am dealt 3-3 in the minors.

 

Responder's Reverse Flannery looks compulsory if your 2C opening shows six cards, you have no alternative to bidding 1D:1S, 2C on 1435 so you'll miss heart fits if you don't have it available.

[straube]

1D as 0+, includes 11-13 bal, 6D/4M, both minors

 

1D-1H as GF balanced OR natural

 

1D-1H, 1S as not 4H, but all with 4S or 3145

 

1D-1H, 1N balanced

 

1D-1H, 2C as 5D/4+C

 

1D-1H, 2D as four hearts with shortness

 

1D-1H, 2H as four hearts balanced

 

1D-1H, 2S as four hearts with void

 

1D-1H, 2N as four hearts, 6+ diamonds

 

1D-1H, 3C as 1345

 

1D-1S, 1N balanced

 

1D-1S, 2C unbalanced, 8+ minors but not 6D, includes 1435

 

1D-1S, 2D four hearts, five+ diamonds

 

1D-1S, 2H-minimum with four spades and shortness OR maximum with three spades and shortness

 

1D-1S, 2S-balanced with four spades OR minimum with three spades and shortness

 

1D-1N, 7-11

 

1D-2C is GF clubs or GF both minors or GI clubs or GI minors with longer clubs

 

1D-2D is GI+ 5+ diamonds but not GF with both minors

 

1D-2H is to play 5S/4+H

 

1D-2S is both minors to play

 

1D-2N is invitational, usually 3+ each minor and no 5-cd minor

 

1D-3L is weak

 

We like 1D-1H as GF balanced OR hearts because it doesn't make sense to respond 2C or 3N with something like AKx xxx AQx Kxxx. 2C is too directional and uses up too much space and 3N obviously kills exploration. For all we know, partner could have Qxxx void Kxxxx AQxx and we are down in 3N while 7m is making. We don't like responding 1H with a distributional hand; we would rather start to describe these.

[Fluffy]

what surprises me the most is that 1♦-2♣-2♦ does not exist.

[mikestar13]

Another very useful source for 1♦=2+ diamonds in a Precision context is Montgomery's Revision Club on Bridge with Dan's site here. Been using this stucture with some success. Montgomery himself opens 1♦ on any <16 balanced hand without a five card major, but the structure could be adapted to a lower 1NT opening range than the 16-18 he uses (which does have some virtues, however.)

[PrecisionL]

I play two versions of 1♦ opening bid in a Precision context and 1NT of 14-16 vulnerable, or 11-14 nV.

 

(a) Match Point Precision: 0+ ♦ may be balanced with a 4-cd major

 

Responses:

1

♥

= 4+ cards and less than Limit Raise,

♠

s may be longer than

♥

s

Opener rebids 1

♠

over a 1

♥

response

1

♠

= 4+ cards and less than Limit Raise, denies 4

♥

1NT = 7-11

2

♣

= 10+ Natural without a 4-cd major

2

♦

= Limit Raise or better with any distribution, does NOT deny 4M

2M = 6-cds or good 5-cd suit and Limit Raise values only

2NT = 16+ hcp and Game Force asking if singleton (no 4-cd major)

3X = Very good suit (asks support or NT without xx/Hx

 

(b) The Diamond-Major: 1♦ may be as short as 0 cards, but promises at least one 4-cd major.

 

Usually not balanced unless both 4-cd majors

Special Responses probably not germane to your question. e-mail if interested

All club bids are pass correct to

♦

with 9+ cards in the minors

[JLOGIC]

One option is to play 1D:2C as 5+diamonds any strength [now 2D = weak NT, others = nat unbal with diamonds] and 1D:2D as GF clubs or 3343 [continuations natural].

 

13(54) should rebid 2C IMO, 1453 is more interesting, it doesn't feel right to me to rebid 2C on it when partner will pass with 3C2D but I've seen Joe Grue do it.

 

Agreed, the Rodwell decreed style is to bid 2C, and in general it makes me uncomfortable but I do it in all my partnerships that I play meckwell light in to make partner happy. There are two important notes about this:

 

1) MW play reverse flannery, so partner will never be less than GF and 5-4 in the majors. This matters a lot and takes away a lot from rebidding 1N, it also means of hands partner is not going to GF with, he will have a 4 card minor more often than usual by a lot.

 

2) MW play 1D 1S 2C 2D 2H as any 1435. The point being, partner will correct with 3-3 in the minors (unless maybe very weak where he was trying to steal or something, but he wouldn't pass for constructive purposes with equal length).

 

I would still bid 1N with no rev flannery with 1453 for sure.

 

Rebid 1S on all hands with four spades. In standard methods I prefer to rebid 1NT because the alternative is rebidding 1S to show 11-18, but in Precision it's pretty huge to be able to float 1S any time you have three spades and 0-9 points, especially as you might respond light just because you don't want to play in a 2-2 diamond fit.

 

100 % agree with this. 1D 1H 1S P (all by you) is very standard in precision. Yes, you wanna cry with 1444 when you bid 1N on that auction, but it is the right way to play imo (having played extensively that 1S promises 4+ diamonds or 4135, and also having played extensively that 1S is bid with all hands with 4S).

 

I'm happy to bid 1D-(1S)-2S with GF hands with four diamonds. Invitational hands are more of an issue. BTW play 1D (1M) 3M as asking partner to bid 3NT, better it be from partner's side.

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I mean, I agree though I'm not that happy about it. Look at it this way, in standard 1D (1S) 2C could have 4 clubs if clubs is your longest suit. I would just think of showing a good hand with a minor as a new suit. I am showing my longest suit and a good hand. That said, a lot of precision players think 1D 1S 2D should be natural and forcing. This makes it somehwat tough when you have 5 diamonds and some values but w/e I guess. Both are fine to me.

 

Also inverted minors, should they be made with only 5 cards?,

 

My answer to this is kind of liek with the last. Don't think of 1D 2D as an inverted minor suit raise, think of it just as you showing values and a natural diamond suit. A 5 card suit here is fine, just like 1S 2D only shows 5.

 

Nobody has comented yet on doubles with/without hearts, I am scared of (32)44 hands when opps overcall 1or 2 spades, is it correct to double there?

 

Over 1S you have the disadvantage with these type of hands that you don't know partners minor, however you do have the advantage that you know you don't have a game with like a random 9 count and you don't NEED to bid to show values. With 3244 I would pass very often, if it gets passed out it might be fine (partner has spade length, sounds like they have hearts). Admittedly, 2344 just sucks since 1S getting pased out is not great. With a 9 or 10 count I just take my chances with X, with 7 I always pass, and with 8 I evaluate the other stuff (vul, form of scoring, etc).

 

1D 2S is just a nightmare auction for a precision diamond, whatever you do you might get screwed, gl (I do know several pairs who play 2N as artificial to try to help them with this).

 

One option over a 1♠ overcall might be for X to be hearts, 1NT to be a request for Opener to bid their minor, 2♣ to show invite or better with one minor, and 2♦ to be invite or better with both minors. A second option is for X to be hearts or invitational, 2♣ to be non-forcing and 2♦ covers the rest. Otherwise, what Micky said works too and is simpler. What is best might depends on what hands are included in the 1♦ opening - KenRexford-style is surely different from standard Precision. Anyone know what Meckwell or Grepson play here?

 

I *think* they play 2D as natural and forcing, 2C as neg free bid + with hearts, 2H as game force with clubs. I do know that meckwell have changed this so I'm not sure their current methods. X is just a negative double. 2S, I think is inv+ with length in both minors? and 3C is less than inv with length in both minors. Not sure so don't quote me on it.

 

I personally just play 2C/2H as normal (I don't like neg free bids), 2D as non forcing, and 2S as a good hand with diamonds. Very mundane, works fine for me imo.

 

Interesting that Meckwell Lite has 1D:1S, 2C as 4-4/5-4/5-3 either way. I'd be inclined to remove the 6D4C/5D3C hands from the 2C rebid and then pass 2C with equal length, rather than having to guess which is the 5-3 and which is the 3-3 when I am dealt 3-3 in the minors.

 

Responder's Reverse Flannery looks compulsory if your 2C opening shows six cards, you have no alternative to bidding 1D:1S, 2C on 1435 so you'll miss heart fits if you don't have it available.

 

lol, shoulda read whole thread before replying 1 by 1. Anyways, yeah, fwiw I always rebid 2D On 6-4 but will bid 2C with 1453 if systemically forced. It is worth noting that in this case it's not as reasonable as it usually would be to say well, Gitelman, Jacobus, Wold, PAssell, Grue, Cheek, MeckWELL, Greco/Hampson etc ALL do it this way, since that entire group is very influenced by what Rodwell says is right. I mean all of the partnerships tweak and change stuff it's not like they blindly follow, but still it is mainly the opinion of rodwell that this is the way to play and everyone else knows that he is far ahead of the rest in non relay precision theory so they are likely to at least start by playing his suggested way (myself included).

 

what surprises me the most is that 1♦-2♣-2♦ does not exist.

it is natural and not a weak NT (so 5+D unbal). Not very special.

 

Anyways, whichever way you choose to go fluffy auctions will always be harder than a natural diamond (especially in competitive auctions). You basically are just deciding they're not that much worse cuz LOL MINORS and you sometimes gain in the play by them not knowing your minor, but you know you are losing and are accepting this loss for the gains of the rest of the system (most notably your 1M auctions).

[straube]

Look at the difference between a 2D opening that shows short diamonds and one that shows six diamonds. Our 2D allows up to four clubs on the side.

 

Precision 2D

.....3415, 4315, 4414, 4405

 

Our 2D

.....2263, 2362, 3262, 2272, 1363, 1273, 1327, 0337, 3163, 2173, 3172, 3073, 3361, 2371, 3271, 3370, 1264, 0364, 1174, 0274, 2164, 3064, 2074

 

So our artificial diamond is actually less loaded than a 2+ diamond. Our 2D is easily relayed out so it's not overloaded, but a Precision 2D Is very underloaded. We have some advantages for having fewer hand types in our 1D.

 

1D-1S, 2C can't be 1453. Opener always has at least four clubs and responder can pass clubs when 3/3 in the minors.

 

1D-1S, 2D for us promises 4H and 5+D. We play reverse flattery so 1D-1S, 2D-3H is GI with 5S/4H. Our 1D-2S hand is not very necessary for GI 5S/4H hands so we use this for weak hands with both minors.

 

Meckwell's 1D-1S, 2D probably has to handle all patterns with 6 diamonds including those with four hearts or four clubs. It's comparatively overloaded compared to our sequence or even our opening 2D bid. Opener can have five more hand patterns here than our long but manageable list of opening 2D patterns.

 

In competition it might be tempting to take advantage of knowing opener has 2+ diamonds and use 1D (1S) 2D as a simple raise. reall you are better off forgetting that opener has two or more diamonds and have responder use forcing bids to describe his hand. In other words, there isn't much point knowing about opener's diamond tolerance if we're not trying to make use of this information. We use transfers after 1D (1S) and 2H shows clubs.

 

Last point, but consider 1D-1H, 1S for every hand with four spades as well as 3145. My point is that there is plenty of room to find out opener's shape (using XYZ or some other) before committing to 3S or 3N AND it means that 1D-1H, 2C will always show 5+D and 4+C and not the other way around. So what If responder raises spades to two or rebids 1N. Even his passing 1S may work out.