viaduct Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) FINCH DISCARD SIGNALLING SYSTEM (English Bridge Union registered 1981 by Vivienne Finch) You always exclude the suit you are signalling with, and, either the trump suit in a Trump contract, or, the suit led in No Trumps, which leaves just 2 suits remaining.Suits are ranked alphabetically CDHS, as in bidding, ♣♦♥♠, an even card showing preference for the higher of the two remaining suits, and an odd card for the lower. An easy way to remember this is EVEN=HIGH(er) of the other 2 suits, both have 4 letters; ODD=LOW(er), both have 3 letters; or HELO = (Higher Even Lower Odd). For example, when ♣s are Trumps, or, in No Trumps, when a ♣ is led and you can’t follow suit; if you want ♥s use an odd ♦, preferring lower of the other 2 (♥s and ♠s), or an even ♠ requesting higher of the other 2 (♦s and ♥s) The advantages are that you can mostly use low, medium and unimportant cards to signal with, and you can, express your desire for the lead of a suit in which you are VOID, choose to signal from either of 2 suits, and get to keep a precious card, a potential trick-winner, in the suit that you want led back to you. Experienced partners are able to signal a suit preference on partner’s opening lead of an honor (AKQJ10). Although you’re following suit, an EVEN card still requests the HIGHer of the other 2 suits (this time ignoring both the led and trump suits), and an ODD card the LOWer of the other 2 suits). If ♥s are trumps and your partner leads the ♦A, an odd ♦ shows a wish for a ♣, and an even ♦ says please lead me a ♠.However if you hold a doubleton, you Peter (High-Low, play your higher, then your lower card) hoping for a ruff, as your partner will now know you had a doubleton, and will realize your first card played was in fact probably not a preference signal after all. A further enhancement can be utilized. When your partner eventually leads your requested suit, they can also indicate their own suit preference. Taking the above example with ♥s as trumps, your partner leads the ♦A, your odd ♦ asked for a ♣. Then, if they lead an even ♣ they might want ♠s, whereas an odd ♣, could mean a ♦. Yet another refinement can be the signal given when leading into a situation, where partner is going to ruff (typically after a doubleton). For instance, when holding ♠AK72 opposite partner’s 85, the 3rd lead of the EVEN ♠2, may indicate a request for a ♦ return, HIGHer of other 2 suits (with ♥ trumps), the ODD ♠7 maybe for ♣s. Suit preferences can additionally be signaled by which trump is used to ruff. For instance on (partner’s) ♦ lead, when holding trumps ♥965 and no ♦s, the EVEN ♥6 could call for a ♠ return (the HIGHer of other 2 suits), and similarly either the ODD ♥9 or the ODD ♥5 might invite ♣s. In the event of partner’s lead being covered or trumped by the 2nd player, one can still establish another suit preference, with the remaining odd/even cards in that suit. The final sophistication available, is on your (opening) lead to show your real desired suit, for example, when opposition are in say ♦s and you have NO ♥s, the lead of an ODD ♣ or EVEN ♠ requests ♥s, whereas an EVEN ♣ is for ♠s, and ODD ♠ for ♣s.This may very well be highly advantageous when leading to partner’s indicated suit. Of course this system, as with any system, needs you to have the appropriate cards, which unfortunately is not always the case. Occasionally you might be left with only even cards, but bear in mind that a Jack is an odd card (and a Queen is an even card). The Finch Discard Signalling System does NOT, needlessly use High cards, force you to waste a card from the very suit you’re requesting, neither does it have any color prejudice or need you to guess whether 5s, 6s and 7s are low, medium or high, and nor does it make you old and Doddery or demand your brain to be constantly Revolving.It does however, give you the ability to show a void, a choice of 2 suits with which to signal, and it can be utilized with the opening lead, and can also tell partner that you have nothing to offer in the way of assistance, by signalling an implausible suit. The only thing it can’t do, is show a like or dislike for the suit being discarded, but as you can readily indicate your required suit, the word discard can finally be taken literally. During the course of play many opportunities are presented for the Finch Discard Signalling system. [removed dead URL] Edited March 11, 2019 by diana_eva removed dead link 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevahound Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 A system with only two messages doesn't work, in my opinion, when 3(+) messages are needed. Messages needed in carding include: - please continue this suit, partner- I have nothing in this suit, partner- PLEASE stop playing this suit, partner- I have no preference what you shift to; try not to give away anything out of your hand- please shift to the lower ranking side suit- please shift to the higher ranking side suit- please shift to a trump (to cut down ruffs or for other reasons)- I have an even (or odd) number of this suit, partner There are refinements on most of the above, as well. Many in my local peer group are insane with suit preference signals. I am a believer in the value of "give partner the info they need most", and it's my job to know what that info is most of the time. I would prefer my opponents to play a system that stresses suit preference at the expense of attitude and count. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) First impression, reading only the first two paragraphs of your monologue: If it were really far superior & has been around for more than 30 years, then it would be played by good players. Who plays this discard system? Second impression, now having read the whole thing: I would never want to play this discard system, and I would kind of laugh hard at anyone who spent a lot of time trying to make it work. Third impression: MikeH is a lot nicer than I am. Edited October 30, 2012 by CSGibson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 Hi Viaduct Welcome to the forum. Having said that, I am afraid that your post on this thread won't impress many people here. There are a wide range of signalling methods, and I doubt that any serious bridge player would claim that even their favourite methods are perfect. I can tell you, without any hesitation, that I am familiar with a number of methods that are far, far superior to the one you described, for reasons that are too numerous to list completely. Indeed, I stopped looking for flaws in the Finch method after seeing a few huge problems. You gave an example of AK72 opposite xx and the strong holding is giving a ruff while suggesting suit preference: the odd card suggests one suit, the even the other. How convenient that you happen to hold AK72 and not AK42 or AK53. You suggest that when defending a heart contract, and partner leads the diamond A, you immediately give suit preference between clubs and spades by playing an odd or even card. Which non-odd/non-even card do you play to suggest continuing diamonds? I think you said an even card asks for clubs, but what if you want spades and hold 753 in diamonds? And on the same hand, you say that you play the 7 to suggest clubs, but if partner continues the K, you PETER to show high-low. Umm.....you want a club switch so you play the 7 from 742, and now partner plays the diamond K rather than a club, and now you HAVE to play a card lower than the 7, so you will have shown, according to you, a doubleton. Now, you may argue that partner can see that, for example, the other low spot hasn't been played by declarer and therefore you must hold it....if so....I suggest you start playing in games against competent declarers who know how to falsecard. This merely scratches the surface, setting out a couple of the most obvious problems that make the method really unplayable. As I began...welcome to the forums, but my suspicion is that you are far less experienced/knowledgable about this great game than you think you are. Don't worry...most of us were in that position at some point. There is a huge amount of knowledge available here, so I encourage you to sit back, spent some time reading and asking questions, and maybe refrain from trying to tell us about these world-beating methods until you have a better appreciation of the kinds of discussions we have here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikestar13 Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 For those for which this might be relevant, this method of signalling is illegal in North America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 OP by far the best signalling system, proven over many years and by many players, is Weasel. However when you are playing behind screens you need to change to modified Weasel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akwoo Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 For those for which this might be relevant, this method of signalling is illegal in North America. How illegal? It's clearly a dual-message discard, so it's illegal on discards beyond the first. Any other situations in which it's illegal? (Not that I would ever play it. Even if I wanted to play a suit-preference heavy carding system, it's surely easier for partner to tell that a 4 is a high card when I'm stuck with 432 than to tell that I have no odd card.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 There is a huge amount of knowledge available here, so I encourage you to sit back, spent some time reading and asking questions, and maybe refrain from trying to tell us about these world-beating methods until you have a better appreciation of the kinds of discussions we have here.No, don't do this. Post whatever you want and we will look at it and find faults or make suggestions if we can. That's a perfectly good way of learning and, who knows, we may also learn something. Certainly you don't have to just sit quietly and listen to your betters. I definitely agree with mikeh's criticisms of the actual method though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Tu Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 How illegal? It's clearly a dual-message discard, so it's illegal on discards beyond the first. Any other situations in which it's illegal? "Except for the first discard only right-side-up or upside-down card ordering strategies are approved." Anything other than first discard. Under ACBL rules, you can only use std or upside-down for signals, not odd-even. Except for first discard. Idea is that practitioners of this tended to huddle when holding all even or all odd cards in the suit led, when this was the wrong message, apparently more so than people throwing their highest card which might be kind of low (e.g. 4 from 432). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 No, don't do this. Post whatever you want and we will look at it and find faults or make suggestions if we can. That's a perfectly good way of learning and, who knows, we may also learn something. Certainly you don't have to just sit quietly and listen to your betters. I definitely agree with mikeh's criticisms of the actual method though.You're right to criticize my post! I encourage all, including the OP, to post as many questions, problems and requests for advice as they can, as often as they can. I stand by my suggestion, however, when it comes to the sort of post that began this thread. The OP is plainly a beginner, at least in terms of the sophistication of the participants in this forum, and it behooves a newbie to hold off claiming that his or her methods are the best in the world, at least until he or she gets a feel for the forum. Otherwise the newbie destroys his or her credibility while also having to deal with what can be strongly worded criticisms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 No upvote from Lurpoa? Is she on vacation? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecalm Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 How convenient that you happen to hold AK72 and not AK42 or AK53. With the latter you finch before playing your card. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve2005 Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 dual message carding strategies are allowed on 1st discard. so would be allowed then in ACBL world.would not be allowed while following suit. when you have only odd or even cards in a suit you will only be able to give that signal.playing standard or upside-down carding you run into to similar situation when you only have high or low cards but at least you can play your highest low card or lowest high card and maybe partner will read it correctly 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siegmund Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Seems like it has all the problems Lavinthal already has -- which is enough to keep a large number of people from using it -- and just trades the waste-a-high-card problem for the what-do-I-do-when-I-have-the-wrong-parity-spots problem. I'd be willing to call it an improvement on Lavinthal. I wouldn't be willing to play it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted November 3, 2012 Report Share Posted November 3, 2012 The final sophistication available, is on your (opening) lead to show your real desired suit, for example, when opposition are in say ♦s and you have NO ♥s, the lead of an ODD ♣ or EVEN ♠ requests ♥s, whereas an EVEN ♣ is for ♠s, and ODD ♠ for ♣s. My head has literally just exploded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 You always exclude the suit you are signalling with, and, either the trump suit in a Trump contract, or, the suit led in No Trumps, which leaves just 2 suits remaining.Suits are ranked alphabetically CDHS, as in bidding, ♣♦♥♠, an even card showing preference for the higher of the two remaining suits, and an odd card for the lower.Oh, I always thought that was Modified Reverse Odd-Even McKenney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted November 4, 2012 Report Share Posted November 4, 2012 I find it's better to play inverted modified reverse odd-even McKenney if you are not vulnerable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurpoa Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) No upvote from Lurpoa? Is she on vacation? http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif NO; I have seen that the Houston spACE center has already done her share of up-voting. Next time, you will get my vote also. Edited November 5, 2012 by barmar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 I wonder what needed editting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurpoa Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 I wonder what needed editting... don't worry ♥, Bar Mar found it necessary to delete 3 little ♥s,and to change the fonts. Did you expect something more sensational ? http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gifAnyway, as said, next time, you will get my votes. Your ti'♥ ♥Lurpoa♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 OK, I left this one alone. You happy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerdonald Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 BBO forum, I play with more than one partner and find it's best to use a simple discard system. We play from low to high with an odd number in a suit and from high to low with an even number. Not very sophisticated but less revealing than some systems. If I'm declarer and I know the defense is playing something like BOSTON I can locate most of the high cards in the led suit. With our system I can lead a 3 and the declarer may know I have an odd number but doesn't know if I have an honor in that suit and my partner will almost the entire distribution of the suit. I always respect a declarer who will ask "what are your discards?" jerdonald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 ... I play with more than one partner and find it's best to use a simple discard system. ...With our system I can lead ... I always respect a declarer who will ask "what are your discards?"Generally it is not best to use the discard system as your spot leading system, but if you do you need to be clear to the opponents that when you answer "what are your discards?" you are answering as well "what are your leads?". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 If I'm declarer and I know the defense is playing something like BOSTON I can locate most of the high cards in the led suit. More than a feeling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 More than a feeling? This is one of the songs that really takes me back to my youth. But I can't help myself asking: what is BOSTON? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.