MickyB Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 Partner opens 1S, you have 3S4H. You play 1S:3D as a three-card limit raise. Do you - a) Respond 1NT to keep the hearts in the gameb) Respond 3D expecting partner to introduce hearts on 5-4 when acceptingc) Just play in spades Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 I just play in spades. The occasional gains from finding the 4-4 fit don't justify the information leakage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 One vote for a) here...if only because I don't have b) or c) and am thusly prejudiced. Seems as if this might be the typical situation where the 4-4 does play better. Do you really have both choices available? Seems like the 3D gadget is designed to offset a NF 1NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 I've found that the 4-4 heart fit is actually a substantial win when you have it (quite often an extra trick, could be the difference between game making and failing). However, I really don't like telling the opponents about opener's minor suit distribution by bidding 1NT, and there are some other issues with that sequence as well (for example, opener's jump shift leaves me unable to show my hand). My preference is to bid 3♦, and expect opener to introduce hearts if he has four. This tells opponents a little about opener's shape (whether he has four hearts) but that's much less information than opener gives over a forcing or semi-forcing 1NT. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecalm Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 I feel that bidding 3H to find 4-4 (or 5-4) hearts is big winner in this situation so b) for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 For me it is 1NT and happy with it. The 4-4 heart fit, if it exists, is much preferred to a 5-3 spade fit. "Information leakage" from opener bidding a minor is not so important for me, because 2♣ is a forcing artificial bid. If opener has a very strong hand, bidding is facilitated by letting him bid 2♣, as cue bids are tricky if you start with 3♦. OK, he can cue with spades trumps, but to keep the hearts in the picture is impossible - he bids 3♥ and you bid 4♥ without knowing his strength. Not playing a Gazzilli type 2♣ there is more going your 3 card limit raise, but there are problems, surely? If he bids 3♥ only when accepting game, then presumably he bids 3♠ if not. Now you have missed your better partial. 1NT keeps it in the picture, ie 1♠ 1NT 2♥ 3♥ pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 After a limit raise, is a new suit natural or cue-bid for you ? After a constructive ( mixed raise ) , a new suit normally is a long suit game-try -- hence natural.But after a limit raise, a new suit normally is a cue-bid . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 I certainly wouldn't rule out hearts. What if those are a 5-5 fit? But 3♦ seems right so partner won't give info by bidding a minor, so b it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted October 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 I'm not convinced that b) gives away less info than a) overall. One way you give away info whenever opener has four hearts, the other way you give away info whenever responder has four hearts. Also 1S:3D, 3H is pretty useful as something else, eg shortage ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 Talking of information leakage, but from the other perspective, 1NT makes it easier for the opponents to enter the auction. But I don't know if, on average, this information leakage helps you in the play of the hand more or less than it helps the opponents' defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 I don't like the information leakage either. But if you can find a way for responder rather than opener to introduce the other major on these kind of auctions, at least you are not revealing the shape of the declaring hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 I don't like the information leakage either. But if you can find a way for responder rather than opener to introduce the other major on these kind of auctions, at least you are not revealing the shape of the declaring hand.You might want to rethink that. Declaring hand will either be opener, and the fact that he has 4-hearts is not leakage but rather obvious when dummy only has four....OR responder will be Declarer and will have leaked the 3-card spade support along with 4 hearts. We need to look for some other reason to choose a particular action and style here, other than "leakage". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 After a limit raise, is a new suit natural or cue-bid for you ? After a constructive ( mixed raise ) , a new suit normally is a long suit game-try -- hence natural.But after a limit raise, a new suit normally is a cue-bid .I don't play this 3 card game invitation, but if I did I would take 3♥ to be natural. (edit) Cue bids are normally over the level of 3M, and depending on your style preceded by a bid or a bypass of serious/non-serious 3NT (which of course is irrelevant in this context). I think finding a 4-4 heart fit is important. Of course, if like me you prefer 1NT if responder has 4 hearts, then there is no reason why 3♥ cannot be an advance cue with a probable lack of club control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted October 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 I'm not convinced that b) gives away less info than a) overall. One way you give away info whenever opener has four hearts, the other way you give away info whenever responder has four hearts. Also 1S:3D, 3H is pretty useful as something else, eg shortage ask. Disagree [with myself]. 1M:3D, 4M *denying* four hearts still constitutes "giving away info about declarer's hand", which is obviously more significant than giving away info about dummy's hand. I think I'm going to proceed by responding 1NT on (34)33, keeping NT and oM in the picture, and give up on other strains when I am 33(43) or other 4-3 majors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 Also 1S:3D, 3H is pretty useful as something else, eg shortage ask.Not convinced about this, as responder has only 3 card support, where shortages are not so useful. If he had a limit raise not counting the shortage, then add the shortage and it becomes a game hand and would be bid a different way. If it was just a simple raise not counting the shortage and adding the shortage turned it into an invitation, then slam seems to be a big hope. If there is a shortage, 3415 or 3451 is twice as likely as 3145, so having hearts as natural is even more important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 Disagree [with myself]...I think I'm going to proceed by responding 1NTIf any of my opponents took 9 hours 25 minutes to make the first response, I might call the director! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 I remember a thread about being up against a team of much better reputation which the oddsmakers deem a big favorite. The question was how to create some variance to improve our chances. Perhaps one variance would be to use our methods to find what we believe to be the best strain and level without worrying about leakage ---and hope our esteemed foes choose not to do that, to their detriment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted October 28, 2012 Report Share Posted October 28, 2012 I don't like the information leakage either. But if you can find a way for responder rather than opener to introduce the other major on these kind of auctions, at least you are not revealing the shape of the declaring hand. You might want to rethink that. Declaring hand will either be opener, and the fact that he has 4-hearts is not leakage but rather obvious when dummy only has four....OR responder will be Declarer and will have leaked the 3-card spade support along with 4 hearts. We need to look for some other reason to choose a particular action and style here, other than "leakage". Obviously you cannot play in a 4-4 heart fit and conceal that declarer has four trumps. Nor can you employ a mechanism to investigate a 4-4 fit without revealing that declarer has less than four when there are four in dummy. I was talking about the situation where you investigate a 4-4 fit and go back to playing the first suit. For example, after 1♠-2♠-2NT(unspecified game try), you could have the agreement that 4♦ by responder accepts and shows four hearts. That way, when you play in spades, opener's heart length is unknown except that he probably has less than four. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoshy Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 Disagree [with myself]. 1M:3D, 4M *denying* four hearts still constitutes "giving away info about declarer's hand", which is obviously more significant than giving away info about dummy's hand. I think I'm going to proceed by responding 1NT on (34)33, keeping NT and oM in the picture, and give up on other strains when I am 33(43) or other 4-3 majors. You might want to disagree with yourself again! 4♠ doesn't deny 4♥ as it could be 64. I also don't see why it couldn't be 54 with poor hearts and stacked minors, where the advantage of playing in spades is that you can discard your hearts (and if you are opposite short hearts, you'll be ruffing in the short hand). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 I am not sure what my internal algorithm is in my head but I do both...maybe show hearts 60 percent and bid 4s 40 percent. My spades def matter, like axxxx I would always try to get to hearts and kqjtx I prob never would. How much a heart lead would help prob plays into it. I have no set rule, I basically go on feel. Also 5431 prime I think I always show hearts as opposes to 5422. Not sure if its true but I think the 44 works better more often when I have a stiff. Sorry this wasn't much help lol, I used to 4s every time but I think it misses hearts too much. Like axxxx akxx qxx x it just feels really right to bid hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 as above, I am sure with KQx Axxx Jxxxx x I'd try to play in hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 Sigh misread obv too dumb to post sry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 a) Respond 1NT to keep the hearts in the game ...or get the dummy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted November 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 ...or get the dummy. I can't tell if you are pointing this out as an argument for or against responding 1NT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 I can't tell if you are pointing this out as an argument for or against responding 1NT! Neither -- it is simply an observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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