ATB Wrong Game

[nigel_k]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq5h976d965ckqj&n=s2ht4dak84cat8763&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1n(15-17)p2s(Clubs%20or%20bal%20invit)p2n(Minimum)p3s(Shortage)p3nppp]266|200[/hv]

 

IMPs.

[gwnn]

I blame west, next time he should lead spades. Failing that, I blame hearts for not breaking.

[lalldonn]

I would have bid the same way. Therefore I blame myself.

[aguahombre]

No blame, given the system.

[MickyB]

Bidding was fine. North might choose to show the minors if he has a sensible way to do that.

[phil_20686]

I would like to see a sim, about 3N vs 5m with the south hand. I have observed before that 5m often plays better opposite these super concentrated hands. Not to mention 6m. Its easy to construct hands where 3N is on the same finesse as 6m like: x Kx AKxx ATxxxx

[Cyberyeti]

I don't like the system, but given the system you're on something of a coin flip.

 

How much easier is it if you can bid 1N-2♠-2N(club fit)-3♦(nat)-3♠ and now you know about the heart issue, but have also pinpointed the lead.

 

The system you play is great for playing in suit contracts, not so great for bidding 3N.

 

If you can't distinguish between the actual N hand and x, AK(x) xxx(x), A10xxxx it makes your life really awkward.

[dake50]

South has blacks stopped that he cannot envision open 1C rebid 1S?

Instead he shows stops with 1NT? Bid where you live!

Peril intended. Peril gotten.

[Zelandakh]

Instead he shows stops with 1NT?

No, Opener showed a balanced hand, not stops. Hand type is more important than stoppers.

[mikeh]

No, Opener showed a balanced hand, not stops. Hand type is more important than stoppers.

No method is perfect. This result rates to be a push unless the opps are playing a method that shows this layout, and in that case they will eventually lose imps on another hand that is routine for you and unbiddable for them.

 

Meanwhile....next board, please

[Trinidad]

No, Opener showed a balanced hand, not stops. Hand type is more important than stoppers.

I fully agree with that.

 

But on this particular hand, if opener wants to, he could fib a little bit and change the ♣J into a ♣10 (because of his 4333 shape, yada bla yada bla bla). If he would have done that, he presumably would have opened 1♣ and rebid 1♠, which among other hand types, contains a 12-14 balanced hand with 4 spades and 3+ clubs. That is not a bad description of the hand.

 

I must admit that -before seeing this hand- I wouldn't have been this creative (because I am lazy). And probably after this hand I will not be this creative either.

 

Rik

[SteveMoe]

South has blacks stopped that he cannot envision open 1C rebid 1S?

Instead he shows stops with 1NT? Bid where you live!

Peril intended. Peril gotten.

Echoing Dake50, I would open this hand 1♣ not 1NT. The benefits:

1) more space to diagnose whether we belong in NT or not.

2) were we to play NT, partner should declare.

 

I adjust down 1 trick for 4333 and find this hand too weak for 1NT (15-17).

[aguahombre]

I can understand someone choosing to downgrade or upgrade a hand into or out of their 1NT range. I cannot understand doing it because of where the strength is concentrated in a 4-3-3-3 hand. You will still be going for a size and shape rebid, unless responder is trained to be the one who merely describes for you so you can operate.

[PhilKing]

I hate the 1NT opening, but not because of the concentrated values or wrong-siding reasons, which are unavoidable in the post-Crowhurst era, but because we are too weak. We have:

 

1. 4333 shape, which rarely pulls its weight.

 

2. KQJ tight in clubs, which is not worth 6 points.

 

3. No tens or nines, which can sway a tight decision.

 

It's difficult to go wrong after 1♣, but that is by the by.

[aguahombre]

I hate the 1NT opening, but not because of the concentrated values or wrong-siding reasons, which are unavoidable in the post-Crowhurst era, but because we are too weak. We have:

 

1. 4333 shape, which rarely pulls its weight.

 

2. KQJ tight in clubs, which is not worth 6 points.

 

3. No tens or nines, which can sway a tight decision.

 

It's difficult to go wrong after 1♣, but that is by the by.

Now, those are reasons to consider. We will never convince certain prominent BBF'rs to ever downgrade, but we know we do it ourselves from time to time.

[the hog]

Echoing Dake50, I would open this hand 1♣ not 1NT. The benefits:

1) more space to diagnose whether we belong in NT or not.

2) were we to play NT, partner should declare.

 

I adjust down 1 trick for 4333 and find this hand too weak for 1NT (15-17).

 

And after 1C 1H you would bid 1S like Dake? You are totally misdescribing your hand, showing 5C and 4S or in some cases 4xx4.You are not showing a 4333 shape.

[SteveMoe]

And after 1C 1H you would bid 1S like Dake? You are totally misdescribing your hand, showing 5C and 4S or in some cases 4xx4.You are not showing a 4333 shape.

While I agree that bidding 1♣ and rebidding 1♠ shows what you mention,

I would expect the auction at my table to be:

1♣-P-2♣(Inverted)-P

2♠(Concentrated strength & doubt about ♥)-P-3♦(Concentrated strength and doubt about♥)-P

5♣

 

Were the auction (on a different North hand) to go 1♣-P-1♥-P I rebid 1NT. Pard can look for 3 Hearts and or 4 Spades with NMF.

[twoshy]

While I agree that bidding 1♣ and rebidding 1♠ shows what you mention,

I would expect the auction at my table to be:

1♣-P-2♣(Inverted)-P

2♠(Concentrated strength & doubt about ♥)-P-3♦(Concentrated strength and doubt about♥)-P

5♣

 

Were the auction (on a different North hand) to go 1♣-P-1♥-P I rebid 1NT. Pard can look for 3 Hearts and or 4 Spades with NMF.

 

Sorry, that auction screams of resulting to me. How can you leap to 5♣ on such shape? Partner could easily have x, xxx, AKxx, ATxxx where 3NT is your only playable game, especially after you've advertised the heart weakness.

[aguahombre]

Sorry, that auction screams of resulting to me. How can you leap to 5♣ on such shape? Partner could easily have x, xxx, AKxx, ATxxx where 3NT is your only playable game, especially after you've advertised the heart weakness.

Yeh, the auction offered by Steve featured a jump to 5C one bid too soon by the wrong player.

But, getting to 5C should still happen via:

 

1C-2C

2S-3D

3S-5C..if the opening bid choice is 1C instead of 1NT.

[SteveMoe]

Yeh, the auction offered by Steve featured a jump to 5C one bid too soon by the wrong player.

But, getting to 5C should still happen via:

 

1C-2C

2S-3D

3S-5C..if the opening bid choice is 1C instead of 1NT.

Thanks.

Many of my partners would interpret the 3♠ rebid as showing 5=6. :huh:

 

With x xxx AKxx A10xxx I would hope partner would rebid 3N not 3♦. I've already warned about ♥.

[aguahombre]

With x xxx AKxx A10xxx I would hope partner would rebid 3N not 3♦. I've already warned about ♥.

With that hand, I would hope partner would rebid 3C over 2S, having shown 11+ with five clubs. That happens to be what she has, and it would be up to opener to pass or move on depending on whether opener has better than 12.

[twoshy]

Thanks.

Many of my partners would interpret the 3♠ rebid as showing 5=6. :huh:

 

With x xxx AKxx A10xxx I would hope partner would rebid 3N not 3♦. I've already warned about ♥.

 

You've warned responder about the hearts... so he bids game without hearts covered? Sorry, that's even worse, you get to play 3NT with x xxx AKxx ATxxx opposite AQxx xx Qx KQxxx with a heart stop of xxx opposite xx.

 

Also, this obsession with stoppers or concentrated values looks like it'll completely cripple any slam auctions, combined with 1♣-2♣-2♠-3♣ as non forcing. Then, there are other ideas such as rebidding spades twice on a 4333 when you could legitimately have the blacks (is 1♣-2♣-3♠ not a splinter?) or rebidding 3NT on a slam suitable minimum with no heart stopper (despite having agreements that focus on stoppers)... why is it so hard to have a sensible auction after opening 1♣?

[twoshy]

To add, basically the impression I'm getting is that whatever the 4333 hand does after opening 1♣ is irrelevant; the important thing is that responder has ATxxxx in support and an AKxx side suit. Bleh.

[rogerclee]

I thought this was the expert forum, is there actually serious discussion about downgrading AKQx 9xx 9xx KQJ?

[Cyberyeti]

I thought this was the expert forum, is there actually serious discussion about downgrading AKQx 9xx 9xx KQJ?

It's reasonable to discuss, do you really want to be in game opposite something very normal for a 3N raise like xx, AKxx, xxxx, Axx. I wouldn't downgrade, but I don't think it's silly to discuss it.

 

The honours are nice, touching honours are always good and I disagree that KQJ is not worth 6 points, would you rather have KQJ or AQx ? I think they're approximately the same, KQJ is better if partner has 4 or more, particularly if he has the 10, or xx(x), AQx is better if partner has A/Kx(x) because it wastes one less of partner's points for 3 tricks.

 

The 4333 shape is bad, the AKQx is huge, the 2 open suits are bad, I assess it as a pretty much normal 15 count. The only advantage of opening 1♣ is you might hear an inverted raise which will tell you that your ♣KQJ is big.