Sanity check

[ggwhiz]

To bid 1♠ I just want to let someone, ANYONE bid 1nt (especially pard if they would otherwise bid two) or allow the opps to bid 2♣ when they otherwise can't bid 3♣.

 

I don't expect the auction to be over yet and 2♦ could already be a terrible spot or will be if pard goes to 3 of them. That said I don't mind a 2♦ call in the least.

[MrAce]

Here is what i think, which seems like being ignored by most of you.

 

- Everyone seems to believe that opponents will not bid again after they opened 1♥ and other one passed.

 

- Even if that is the case, which leaves our pd to hold ***** loads of hcp, thus he started with DBL planning either to bid his spades, diamonds or clubs, or NT later. Or about to cue.

 

Among all these, i believe pd is about to bid NT much more often than any other bids listed. I mean yes when pd has a giant with heart stiff, as i admitted in earlier post, i wanna be in diamonds too. But i still didn't recieve an answer from Cyber about how on earth opponents, with as much strength as our side and 9 card fit remained silent ?

 

Pd will not have to hold 4 spades when he is that strong, he may be as short as doubleton or singleton spade. Rightly or wrongly i bid 1♠ because pd rates to rebid NT when i hold this poor collection and opponents are doing nothing after they opened 1♥. What is the likelyhood of them having 9 card solid hearts and half of the deck ?

 

@ Cyber : If you check old topics, you will see people bid 1♠ and then bid 4 ♠ when pd doubles and cues or splinters with hands like xxxxx xxxx xx xx (i am just making up a hand to make a point) I also disagree with you about pd shd cue with the original hand if we bid 1♠ or 2♦. I think he has a clear 3♥ bid. He can not just bid with the fear of we are holding 3343 and nothing.He will have to take the risk of playing either 3♠ or 4♦. But thats a matter of opinion, and i believe you if you say you can stay in 3♦.

 

@ Rainer : I appreciate the detailed explenation. You made me think more about the outcomes of playing a 4-3 2♠ and 4-4 3♦ contracts, and you have valid points. Perhaps i overestimated the possibilities of pd holding a hand where he has to raise to 3♦ with only 3 card fit. I confess it is very very rare.

 

Overall, as i said eralier i may be convinced that 2♦ is a better choice. I am not ashamed to back up from my view since my priority reason to write in these forums is to improve myself, not to show or prove anyone how good or how brave bidder/player i am. It has been and it will always be a competition for me mostly with myself. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure 2♦ was the winning call, looking at the title of this topic. I just disagree with those who thinks it is a matter of sanity or insanity to choose one or the other on this hand as well as i disagree with those who thinks other choice is a joke, especially when one of the top players in forums says he bids 2♦ and wouldn't even consider 1♠.

 

I was dissapointed though with the views which thought i was bidding 1♠ with the hope that i was planning to play there. I still believe, rightly or wrongly, after RHO did not raise hearts, we will hear NT from pd much more often than any other bids if LHO passes too. Please lets agree that when pd is very strong he can hold any type of hands and he may even be void in spades. I dont understand the concern about he will always have spade fit and raise us, especially when RHO passed and LHO will remain silent. Cmon now ...trying to keep auction as low as possible is neither insanity nor unlogical with this hand we hold.

 

Peace all :)

[Cyberyeti]

Here is what i think, which seems like being ignored by most of you.

 

- Everyone seems to believe that opponents will not bid again after they opened 1♥ and other one passed.

 

- Even if that is the case, which leaves our pd to hold ***** loads of hcp, thus he started with DBL planning either to bid his spades, diamonds or clubs, or NT later. Or about to cue.

 

Among all these, i believe pd is about to bid NT much more often than any other bids listed. I mean yes when pd has a giant with heart stiff, as i admitted in earlier post, i wanna be in diamonds too. But i still didn't recieve an answer from Cyber about how on earth opponents, with as much strength as our side and 9 card fit remained silent ?

 

That is why I think partner is marked with a huge hand, his hand is pretty minimum if short in hearts.

 

Pd will not have to hold 4 spades when he is that strong, he may be as short as doubleton or singleton spade. Rightly or wrongly i bid 1♠ because pd rates to rebid NT when i hold this poor collection and opponents are doing nothing after they opened 1♥. What is the likelyhood of them having 9 card solid hearts and half of the deck ?

 

IF partner is short in hearts, he has at least half the deck himself, but note that you are in the land of the 4+ card 1♥, not everybody raises with 3, and not everybody bids again with a bad hand with 6. On the actual hand however I have absolutely no idea why there wasn't a raise over the double. What would you bid over 1♥-X-2♥-P-P-X-P ? 2♠ or 3♦ which you have 2 ways to bid and can show the bad one ? In fact the only way to beat 3♥ with the opps holding ♠J9xx opposite Q10 is to underlead the ♣AKQ and get a diamond through the AQ.

 

@ Cyber : If you check old topics, you will see people bid 1♠ and then bid 4 ♠ when pd doubles and cues or splinters with hands like xxxxx xxxx xx xx (i am just making up a hand to make a point) I also disagree with you about pd shd cue with the original hand if we bid 1♠ or 2♦. I think he has a clear 3♥ bid. He can not just bid with the fear of we are holding 3343 and nothing.He will have to take the risk of playing either 3♠ or 4♦. But thats a matter of opinion, and i believe you if you say you can stay in 3♦.

 

If I double and cue I suspect I'm showing a little less than if you do, a balanced 19 with 4 spades will be enough for me, so I won't be jumping to game with that collection, and certainly not xxxx, xxx, x, xxxxx.

 

Overall, as i said eralier i may be convinced that 2♦ is a better choice. I am not ashamed to back up from my view since my priority reason to write in these forums is to improve myself, not to show or prove anyone how good or how brave bidder/player i am. It has been and it will always be a competition for me mostly with myself. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure 2♦ was the winning call, looking at the title of this topic. I just disagree with those who thinks it is a matter of sanity or insanity to choose one or the other on this hand as well as i disagree with those who thinks other choice is a joke, especially when one of the top players in forums says he bids 2♦ and wouldn't even consider 1♠.

 

I was dissapointed though with the views which thought i was bidding 1♠ with the hope that i was planning to play there. I still believe, rightly or wrongly, after RHO did not raise hearts, we will hear NT from pd much more often than any other bids if LHO passes too. Please lets agree that when pd is very strong he can hold any type of hands and he may even be void in spades. I dont understand the concern about he will always have spade fit and raise us, especially when RHO passed and LHO will remain silent. Cmon now ...trying to keep auction as low as possible is neither insanity nor unlogical with this hand we hold.

 

Peace all :)

 

My worry if I bid 1♠ is that partner will assume I have 4 once he finds out I don't have 4 hearts. Give partner something really big of similar shape and consider an auction of 1♥-X-P-1♠-2♥-X-3♥-P-P now it sounds like I only have 3 hearts, so he might just punt 4♠ with something slightly bigger (say AKxx, x, AKxx, AKQx) which would play terribly badly on 2 rounds of hearts and trumps 4-2.

[the hog]

2♦ for me . A question for those who always bid 1♠ with this or similar hands. Do you or your regular partner alert it?

 

Of course not. It is a natural bid.

[the hog]

I notice with some measure of ennui that those who bid 2D are usually those that expect partner to raise 1s to 2 with any reasonable minimum hand with 4S - see past posts. My partners do not do this. A raise to 2S is a real bid. Similarly after a x and a cue, 2S would show absolute trash and I would expect partner to pass unless she has game in her hand. Thirdly do those who bid 2D really think that this is safer? After 2D and a cue what are you going to bid? 3D? You are now playing 3D while I am playing 2S. If you say you would now bid 2S, how would you bid the following:

xxxx

x

KJxxxx

xx

 

Fine bid 2D in your partnerships, I will bid 1S in mine.

With the given hands I would probably end up in 2S after the doubler makes a cue. With the stated breaks 2S should be made.

I guess the 2D bidders would not double 1H on a shape of.

xxxx

xx

xxx

xxxx

 

With say

AKJx

xx

Kxx

AKJx

What are you going to bid now? Cue followed by 3D? 2NT without a stopper? 3D?

[Phil]

1♠ works better when partner passes, or bids 1N, or gives the opponents extra room to find a club fit. 2♦ also forces partner to bid 2N with a 19 count. 1♠ is better when partner chose to make an offshape x with a good 4324.

 

1♠ is demonstrably worse when partner hangs us. I don't think I like either scenario if partner cue bids.

 

Doesn't seem close to me.

[Trinidad]

2♦ for me . A question for those who always bid 1♠ with this or similar hands. Do you or your regular partner alert it?

 

Of course not. It is a natural bid.

So are canape openings and Walsh responses to 1♣. It's not a strange idea to treat canape responses to a takeout double the same way as Walsh or canape openings.

 

I would not answer zasanya's question with a definite "Yes", but "Of course not." is an overstatement. If the question would have been part of a test, this answer would not earn any credit. ;)

 

Rik

[awm]

2d for me. It seems bidding 1s is quite bad if partner has four spades. Even worse if partner had three spades... say AKx xx AKxx KQJx and cuebids 2h over your 1s (or doubles 2h to show extras). Now 3d from you sounds like a hand so you are end played to a violation of Burn's law.

[rhm]

I notice with some measure of ennui that those who bid 2D are usually those that expect partner to raise 1s to 2 with any reasonable minimum hand with 4S - see past posts. My partners do not do this. A raise to 2S is a real bid. Similarly after a x and a cue, 2S would show absolute trash and I would expect partner to pass unless she has game in her hand. Thirdly do those who bid 2D really think that this is safer? After 2D and a cue what are you going to bid? 3D? You are now playing 3D while I am playing 2S. If you say you would now bid 2S, how would you bid the following:

xxxx

x

KJxxxx

xx

I would bid 2♦ followed by 3♠ over a cue-bid of 2♥. This should describe such a hand. If I feel I am not strong enough to jump over a cuebid I will bid a 4 card major in preference to a longer minor. So a 2♠ bid in response to a cuebid after (1♥) DBL - 2♦ - 2♥ can not show a 4 card spade suit.

 

But let me also ask a different question to the 1♠ bidders:

You hold ♠T7653,♥642, ♦52,♣J42

How do distinguish this hand from the actual one ♠653,♥642♦T752,♣J42?

 

It matters a lot in this case:

 

Partner's hand is:

 

AKxx

x

KJxx

AKQx

Opposite ♠T7653,♥642, ♦52,♣J42 game in spades is excellent.

Opposite ♠653,♥642♦T752,♣J42 game in spades is a disaster.

The sad truth is rebidding a 3 card major means you keep your partner in the dark about your distribution.

I can not see how your partner with a very strong hand can ever make a sensible decision that way.

 

Fine bid 2D in your partnerships, I will bid 1S in mine.

With the given hands I would probably end up in 2S after the doubler makes a cue. With the stated breaks 2S should be made.

I guess the 2D bidders would not double 1H on a shape of.

xxxx

xx

xxx

xxxx

 

With say

AKJx

xx

Kxx

AKJx

What are you going to bid now? Cue followed by 3D? 2NT without a stopper? 3D?

Of course I double with 4=2=3=4 distribution.

 

With say

 

AKJx

xx

Kxx

AKJx

 

I double and the bidding would probably go (1♥)-DBL-2♦-2♥-2♠-3♦-Pass.

Not nice but still much better than 1♥-DBL-1♠-3♠. (And I consider stopping below 4♠ conservative. I bet most would not at the table)

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

I notice with some measure of ennui that those who bid 2D are usually those that expect partner to raise 1s to 2 with any reasonable minimum hand with 4S - see past posts. My partners do not do this. A raise to 2S is a real bid. Similarly after a x and a cue, 2S would show absolute trash and I would expect partner to pass unless she has game in her hand. Thirdly do those who bid 2D really think that this is safer? After 2D and a cue what are you going to bid? 3D? You are now playing 3D while I am playing 2S. If you say you would now bid 2S, how would you bid the following:

xxxx

x

KJxxxx

xx

 

Fine bid 2D in your partnerships, I will bid 1S in mine.

With the given hands I would probably end up in 2S after the doubler makes a cue. With the stated breaks 2S should be made.

I guess the 2D bidders would not double 1H on a shape of.

xxxx

xx

xxx

xxxx

 

With say

AKJx

xx

Kxx

AKJx

What are you going to bid now? Cue followed by 3D? 2NT without a stopper? 3D?

A bid of 2♠ without competition does show a decent hand, maybe 15-17 in my book, but if the intervening hand bids 2♥ might be a little weaker.

 

If I have 4 spades, 5/6 diamonds and a minimum, I bid 1♠, and over 2♥ bid 3♦.

 

On the final hand you give, I double, cue and either pass 2♠ (partner will be 3/4 in ♠/♦) or bid 3♦ with no strong feeling which I do.

[MrAce]

 

But let me also ask a different question to the 1♠ bidders:

You hold ♠T7653,♥642, ♦52,♣J42

How do distinguish this hand from the actual one ♠653,♥642♦T752,♣J42?

 

I think i already answered this question. With the original hand doubler bids 3♥ regardless of we bid 1 ♠ or 2♦. Any other bid is nothing but resulting imo. This is the best way of describing our hand. You bid 3♠ and go down with the actual hand we hold, you bid 4♠ with the hand you gave that has 5 spades. And i am not in the same camp with Cyber who believes 4 card spades balanced hand and 19 hcp is enough to cue. There is 2 ♠ bid to show extras, there is 3♠ bid to show more than 16-18 range, there is jump cue, there are splinter bids (4♥) and there is finally the normal cue, which doesn't even promise a fit yet imo.

 

Doubler is aware that 1♠ can be made on 3 card suit, after all we have to bid something with xxx xxxx xxx xxx. In fact when doubler sees LHO passed and ddint raise his pd, and opener didn't rebid his hearts this is not even a rare possibility anymore. But Cyber said something about 4 card major land, which is another story. But i played in other lands where people don't remain silent when they have half of the deck and 9 card SOLID major suit fit. If they do, i know pd is about to bid some number of NT. Not a cue, not a support, but mostly NT. I mean as Josh said you can say "only gain i see is when pd is about to bid NT" , as if it is only one of the many other bids pd may make, but i believe we will hear NT from pd overwhelmingly more than any other bid when opponents are silent in this auction after they opened 1♥.

 

Rainer, all i am saying is, you would want to start 1♠ if someone whispered you that pd is about to bid NT. And i would want to start 2♦ if someone whispered my ear that pd has BOTH perfect take out shape AND a giant. Rightly or wrongly i believe the #1 is more likely. Given the conditions (auction in OP and the hand i hold) i think for me to say that #1 is more likely is an understatement actually.

[PhilKing]

1NT.

[lalldonn]

It's kind of making me laugh that it seems like everyone who bids 1♠, with the notable exception of Mr. Ace, thinks partner will just cuebid and pass 2♠ on all kinds of hands that frankly are worth a game force or extremely close. These example hands are insane, like AKxx x KJxx AKQx. Partner needs xxxx xxx Qxx xxx to want to be in game. Hands like that are just a game force. In practical real-life bridge you can't cater to partner holding a 0 count without losing to far more frequent situations. Even a stodgy wimpy bidder would have to at least force to three. I think partner will cuebid then pass on hands with three spades often. In fact, that is the expected hand type, since with four spades he would just raise to the appropriate level.

 

Mr. Ace, I know you probably weren't referring to me, but I am not ignoring that the opener might well bid again. I think that is even worse for bidding 1♠ since if he rebids 2♥ or 3♥ then partner has lost the cuebid and some of his raises, so he will probably just blast 4♠ a lot. Plus, what if partner doubles opener's rebid, suggesting extras with three spades? Then you either knowingly go to your 3-3 fit, or bid diamonds a level higher which must show a stronger hand. You have a point that 1♠ is better if opener is rebidding notrump, which is something I mentioned in my earlier post. (But if he has the same strength with four spades you are worse instead of better.) However, if he is doing anything else, then I just don't see how 1♠ is likely to work well.

[gszes]

The back and forth on this subject was interesting reading. This hand stinks

and is very unlikely to work well opposite almost any strong hand p has no matter

how the bidding proceeds because this hand stinks. Most of the time when time p has a strong

hand we will end up at the 3 level or higher (except) when p can come back 1n over our

1s overcall. This is where the 1s bid has the ability to gain a ton of MP (maybe not so

many IMPS though). 1S at IMPS runs the rather large risk of finding p with a spade fit

and straining to bid game which can lead to huge disasters (this will rarely happen after

2d because 5d is so far away).

 

IMO it appears that

 

MP 1s may have a small edge over 2d though I am not sure (im in the 2d camp here).

IMPS 2d is just plain safer and will most likely be far more IMP frinedly

in the long run. Be prepared to rebid 3d (UGHHHHHHHHHHHHH) over a 2h cue bid.

 

This hand stinks.

[MrAce]

It's kind of making me laugh that it seems like everyone who bids 1♠, with the notable exception of Mr. Ace, thinks partner will just cuebid and pass 2♠ on all kinds of hands that frankly are worth a game force or extremely close. These example hands are insane, like AKxx x KJxx AKQx. Partner needs xxxx xxx Qxx xxx to want to be in game. Hands like that are just a game force. In practical real-life bridge you can't cater to partner holding a 0 count without losing to far more frequent situations. Even a stodgy wimpy bidder would have to at least force to three. I think partner will cuebid then pass on hands with three spades often. In fact, that is the expected hand type, since with four spades he would just raise to the appropriate level.

 

Mr. Ace, I know you probably weren't referring to me, but I am not ignoring that the opener might well bid again. I think that is even worse for bidding 1♠ since if he rebids 2♥ or 3♥ then partner has lost the cuebid and some of his raises, so he will probably just blast 4♠ a lot. Plus, what if partner doubles opener's rebid, suggesting extras with three spades? Then you either knowingly go to your 3-3 fit, or bid diamonds a level higher which must show a stronger hand. You have a point that 1♠ is better if opener is rebidding notrump, which is something I mentioned in my earlier post. (But if he has the same strength with four spades you are worse instead of better.) However, if he is doing anything else, then I just don't see how 1♠ is likely to work well.

 

Yes Josh, Justin would call me Timo so i am guessing this is you :)

 

I am aware and admitted that i would wanna start 2♦ if pd is not about to bid NT. Perhaps i am overestimating the possibility of pd bidding NT in this auction.

 

I % 100 agree with you that pds hand can make game vs justa 5 card spades or even just 4 card spades. He ain't gonna pass in peace after he cued over 2♠, no way.

 

Since we all threw our 2 cents, repeatedly, about what we should start with and why, may i take attention to a different choice in this auction ? What would you guys prefer with pds hand, after he doubled and heard a-1♠ b-2♦ ? 2♥ or 3♥ or 4♥ if pd bid spades ? Because there seems also different ideas about this as well. I personally think 3♥ is the bid that describes our hand best but i would like to hear what everybody thinks and of course why.

 

IMPS 2d is just plain safer and will most likely be far more IMP frinedly

in the long run. Be prepared to rebid 3d (UGHHHHHHHHHHHHH) over a 2h cue bid.

 

This hand stinks.

 

I am definetely with Rainer on this one, if i started 2♦ i would bid 2♠ now over 2♥ cue. There is no way i would skip spades if i had 4 of them. (As you see i didn't even skip 3 card spades :P )

[aguahombre]

.... if i started 2♦ i would bid 2♠ now over 2♥ cue. There is no way i would skip spades if i had 4 of them.

Yep. Finally some common ground on this one. That continuation after 2D should get the message across that you have a range of zip, have 4 diamonds/only 3 spades, and want to use the green card next.

[rmnka447]

I'm in the 1 ♠ camp mostly because it is the cheapest bid available and gives partner the maximum room to respond.

 

If that doesn't work well when pard holds a moose and cues, so be it.

 

Give partner something like ♠ Axx ♥ xx ♦ Ax ♣ AKJxxx and 2 ♦ may have just got us past our last makable contract -- 2 ♣.

[Cyberyeti]

Give partner something like ♠ Axx ♥ xx ♦ Ax ♣ AKJxxx and 2 ♦ may have just got us past our last makable contract -- 2 ♣.

Yes, and the way I play, he'd have overcalled 2♣ with that, depends on your methods.

[aguahombre]

I'm in the 1 ♠ camp mostly because it is the cheapest bid available and gives partner the maximum room to respond.

 

If that doesn't work well when pard holds a moose and cues, so be it.

 

Give partner something like ♠ Axx ♥ xx ♦ Ax ♣ AKJxxx and 2 ♦ may have just got us past our last makable contract -- 2 ♣.

Partner has a 2C overcall, and an unfortunate duplication in clubs (the Jack in both hands). You gotta make the hand stronger, IMO, to illustrate your point. But, if you do, it will probably make more than 2C.

[lalldonn]

I'm in the 1 ♠ camp mostly because it is the cheapest bid available and gives partner the maximum room to respond.

 

If that doesn't work well when pard holds a moose and cues, so be it.

 

Give partner something like ♠ Axx ♥ xx ♦ Ax ♣ AKJxxx and 2 ♦ may have just got us past our last makable contract -- 2 ♣.

The opponents' last making contract is 3♥ or 4♥...

[ggwhiz]

That is why I think partner is marked with a huge hand, his hand is pretty minimum if short in hearts.

 

I agree that somebody has a huge hand but it could easily be my lho and that's why I lean towards 1♠. If lho has the big one, maybe he can show it with 1nt or a jump and I'm hoping that will slow partner down with their own good hand.

[lalldonn]

Since we all threw our 2 cents, repeatedly, about what we should start with and why, may i take attention to a different choice in this auction ? What would you guys prefer with pds hand, after he doubled and heard a-1♠ b-2♦ ? 2♥ or 3♥ or 4♥ if pd bid spades ? Because there seems also different ideas about this as well. I personally think 3♥ is the bid that describes our hand best but i would like to hear what everybody thinks and of course why.

I would force to game so I would bid 4♥, though 3♥ is fine if you aren't forcing to game. I don't agree with the idea that if partner has Txxxx xxx xx xxx or something he should bid game over 3♥. (I thought you said that but I can't find it, or maybe it was someone else?) That is not practical since if partner makes game opposite a 0 count he should bid game. I wouldn't accept without at least a working card outside.

 

I just don't cater my bidding to partner holding the worst hand possible, and especially not to holding three spades when he bids spades. Sure I would bid 1♠ with xxx xxxxx xxx xx but I can't remember ever actually doing it so it's not like I'm going to worry about it.

[aguahombre]

I agree that somebody has a huge hand but it coyuld easily be my lho and that's why I lean towards 1♠. If lho has the big one, maybe he can show it with 1nt or a jump and I'm hoping that will slow partner down with their own good hand.

And I am kinda hoping LHO cannot show that with a 1NT bid over my 2D.

[Cyberyeti]

Can we infer we are talking about MP Pairs? If so the Major suit bias weighs heavily.

Nope, teams league played over 4 fixed nights, my 3 team mates were all on holiday.

 

To lalldonn:

It's kind of making me laugh that it seems like everyone who bids 1♠, with the notable exception of Mr. Ace, thinks partner will just cuebid and pass 2♠ on all kinds of hands that frankly are worth a game force or extremely close.

 

This was the point I was rather clumsily trying to make. By saying I would cue over 1♥-X-P-1♠-P with AKxx, xx, KJx, AKJx, I clearly must go again if I cue and partner bids 2♠ on the original hand, so I'm playing 3♠ at least.

[phil_20686]

I am a 2D bidder.