I need some ideas

[Fluffy]

To make it clear, 3m promises 4 card support. I thought that was obvious when i said 2m promised 4+ (not 5+)

It was pretty clear untill I read that no shortness was allowed and then... why didn't you just say that the only shape is 5422? looks like a very small target to me.

[jogs]

One of the things that people hate about j2n is the opener jumping to 4 of M with a dead min hand.

 

 

It is correct to jump to 4M with a minimum hand. The problem is players think in terms of minimum in HCP. They need to think in terms of controls.

 

1. ♠ AKxxx ♥ Axx ♦ xxx ♣ xx

2. ♠ KJxxx ♥ QJx ♦ QJx ♣ KJ

 

For purposes of slam 1. is better than 2. 5 controls is better than 2.

Bid 3♠ with 1. Close out with 4♠ with 2.

[kenrexford]

This is getting more and more bizarre.

 

1♠-2♦

 

3♦-3♠

 

OK, we have a double fit. So, what are the options?

 

First, we could be sane and cuebid as if spades are agreed, a novel concept. 3NT is serious or frivolous, whatever you like, with an ability to cue three suits -- clubs, diamonds, and spades. Then, we use RKCB or such to clarify spade honors.

 

Alternatively, we could dedicate a call to force a diamond-agreement override to allow cuebids in spades. If this is the absolute cheapest call, that would be 3NT. We then apparently can cuebid 4♠ at some point. Thus, we enable cuebids in spades in situations where we lose RKCB for diamonds (we bid too far), and only oif by bidding 3NT we force the contract past 4♠ already, and only when for come reason RKCB as the solution for spade cards is a bad idea. I cannot imagine what hand that would possibly be, but apparently someone has this in mind.

 

I mean, if you desperately want to cue spades, then there is a completely different solution that at least makes some sense -- ditch serious/fricolous 3NT and instead make 3NT a spade cuebid. (Or, similarly, re-define "serious" as "I have good enough spades to cuebid them.")

[PhilKing]

I have to agree with Ken here.

 

The number of bizarre "solutions" for what is basically a non-problem is quite staggering.

 

Personally I would never play 3m as 5422 any range, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't feel any urge to reinvent the wheel.

[gnasher]

I have to agree with Ken here.

 

Everyone finds themselves in that position at some point in their BBF lives. Alcohol may help.

[PhilKing]

Everyone finds themselves in that position at some point in their BBF lives. Alcohol may help.

 

When the nutty professor suggests "standard", he is probably right!

 

I fully expected two different types of 6 ace RKC, one of which would involve the spade jack.

[MrAce]

To those who are complaining about 3m showing mostly 5422 shape. What did you understand from my first post that says ...

 

1M--2x

3x--3M(openers major)

 

*Assume that 2x showed 4+ if it is minor (not 5+) and 3x denied to hold a stiff in unbid suits.

 

I am aware when responders suit is diamond, it is not easy to show club shortness. So in 1M-2♦-3♦ opener can have a club shortness if he is not willing to splinter at 4 level. But still responder knows that opener can not have a stiff ( or void) in the unbid major).This alone reduces the 5431 shape possibility by a lot and letme know if you suggest different continuation after 2d-3d auctions due to this.

 

Or do you guys require some certain strength for those splinters ? Because by the time i took my break from bridge it didn't require any extra strength by opener (in 2/1 system though) for 3 level splinters. We were doing it with something like x AQxxx Qxx Axxx 1♥-2♣-3♠.

 

Another question, to those who are complaining about 3m has a wide range, AKxxx Kx xx QTxx aren't we supposed to raise clubs to 3 with this as well as with AKxxx Kx Ax Axxx ? Because it may not be perfect but i can write down much more problems for those who thinks these hands should start differently over pds 2♣, when they know that 2♣ showed 4+ and gf values. I am aware most of you play 2♣ response different than what i wrote in my OP, and your solution can make sense in a different context, but obviously thats not the case here.

[bluecalm]

I feel that establishing diamonds is not that important here. Just play 6RKCB and 6d afterwards as to play.

Remember that 6M opposite 6m is +2imps. Those adds up and make hunting for a perfecto much less attractive.

I feel that non-serious/serious mechanism + cuebids is the way go.

Let's say we choose non-serious. I would go a bit more serious with it than usual and just bid 4S on most 11-13hands leaving 3NT for (13)14-15 and cuebids for serious slam tries even opposite 4 diamonds.

I think that finding out about our range with some decent accuracy is more important than other stuff herre. I really want to avoid a situation when we are often making 5 level tries and ending up playing something silly just because we were afraid partner could have much more.

[MrAce]

I feel that establishing diamonds is not that important here. Just play 6RKCB and 6d afterwards as to play.

 

 

I fully expected two different types of 6 ace RKC, one of which would involve the spade jack.

 

I am not ashamed to confess that i never played 6 ace keycard. Sounds interesting. Can you guys write it for me please ? (If you think it will hijack the topic pm ing me will be appreciated as well)

 

Thanks :)

[PhilKing]

I am not ashamed to confess that i never played 6 ace keycard. Sounds interesting. Can you guys write it for me please ? (If you think it will hijack the topic pm ing me will be appreciated as well)

 

Thanks :)

 

I play a simpler version than Kantar where we just aggregate the queens, so the responses are exactly the same as RKCB. If we have the queens of both suits, we count it as 1 ace. If we show 1 key card, the step asks for either trump Q.It can be as simple as that. It's not the technically correct method, but it works fine.

 

After 3♠, I would certainly play 4m as 6 ace, but it's obviously not mandatory.

[Fluffy]

I know 2 versions, one is the half a keycard for each queen that phil described above where the number of keycards answered are :

 

5♣= 4/4.5 or 1/1.5

5♦ = 3/3.5 or 0/0.5

5♥ = 2

5♠ = 2.5

 

as usually next step asks for half a keycad extra (a queen)

 

The other is this one:

 

5♣ = 4 or 1

5♦ = 3 or 0

5♥ = 2 + no queens

5♠ = 2 + minor queen

5NT = 2 + major queen

6♣ = 2 + both queens

[MrAce]

I play a simpler version than Kantar where we just aggregate the queens, so the responses are exactly the same as RKCB. If we have the queens of both suits, we count it as 1 ace. If we show 1 key card, the step asks for either trump Q.It can be as simple as that. It's not the technically correct method, but it works fine.

 

After 3♠, I would certainly play 4m as 6 ace, but it's obviously not mandatory.

 

Sorry my bad, i should have been more clear

 

I meant to ask "When do you guys know it is a 6 ace rkcb situation and when normal rkcb ?" Is it always when have shown double fit or is there any exceptions ?

[aguahombre]

One of us has shown two suits, and the other has shown at least two cards in the suit which isn't established as trump. There are six prime keys. We let the off-suit queen take care of itself if showing two (five?) keys. This works for us because we don't lie about shape bids. If it is unknown whether two cards are held in the other suit, there are only 5 keys.

[bluecalm]

Most common situation is bal hand opposite 2suiter which often happens after 1N/2N/2C openings or in sequences like:

1C - 1S

1N - 3H

 

You need to make agreements if it always applies in such situation or if you need 5-5 in general and 5-4 in specific cases (say only after 2NT opening).

[PhilKing]

I would start by playing it only when you have shown two guaranteed eight-card+ fits (no exceptions).

 

You could add in the hands where the second suit is known not to be facing shortage at a later date.

[Fluffy]

2 suits have been supported

balanced hands vs 2 suiter, this includes biddings such as 1NT-2♥-2♠-3♣-4♣, but not 1NT-2♥-2♠-3♣-3♠ (unsuported suit must be 5+)

[MrAce]

Than you guys, your replies are very much appreciated :)

[dake50]

Instead of Good-Bad 3NT, try 3NT as x-minor keys-ask.

Even 4 of other minor as keys-ask.

I don't see M-try hurt much giving up 3NT Good-Bad.

At worst 4NT keys gets to 5M - oops if Q-bids don't warn off slam try.

Rethinking this situation, the minor slam try needs to be immediate priority.

Thanks for noting this problem.

[kenrexford]

Y'all are forcing me to make a suggestion.

 

If you happen to be in the camp where the minor fit is clearly established (the minor bid by Responder is real) and really find the need to focus the minor that much, then i would suggest solving the problem earlier if at all possible.

 

The solution might be to have +1 show the major fit. For example, assume 1S-2C, 3C-?. Responder bids +1 to agree spades also. Thus, 1S-2C, 3C-3D shows a spade fit also. (Bid 3S, instead, as whatever 3D would normally show, such as a notrump probe needing a heart stop or whatever).

 

By grabbing that extra step in many sequences (not in hearts-diamond situation), you enable either a cue in the major or a relay, depending on style.

 

If that seems good, you could even make this better by having Opener submarine the raise. If Opener wants to raise diamonds, for example, he bids 3C (3D would instead show a club suit), but that might be rich. Maybe just use that in the heart-diamond situation?

 

An auction example:

 

1S-2C

3C-3D,(double fit)

3H(relay)-?

 

3S=focus clubs

3NT+=focus spades, cues

 

After,3S to focus clubs, 3NT is a spade cue.

 

If spades and diamonds:

 

1S-2D

3D-3H(double fit)

3S(relay)-?

 

3NT=focus diamonds

4C+=focus spades, cues

 

Something like that.

[han]

I;'m afraid I will also choose the Ken Rexford side of this debate. Scary.

 

Andy wants two bids. One says "I have a strong 5-2-4-2 and spades is going to be trumps", and one that says "I have a strong 5-2-4-2 and diamonds is going to be trumps". It seems to me that this is not the most important use of room. Especially since it is responder, not opener, who can usually make a better judgement to which is going to be the trump suit.

 

Andy also wrote, on the very first page:

 

If we have two trump suits, that means we can't cue-bid in either of them.

 

It seems to me that, lacking any other agreement, everybody would assume 4D is a cuebid and shows the ace or king.