BunnyGo Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 You hold Qxx, Jx, 9xxxx, Axx and partner (in 3rd seat) opens a 15-17 NT. RHO then sticks in a 2D bid for both majors. Now what? If you pass or double, LHO will bid 2S, pass back to you. Now what? In particular, what would your different bids mean--the only thing you've discussed with your partner is that you play Lebensohl, and negative doubles, but this auction or similar was undiscussed. We had discussed that systems were on over X and 2C, excepting when 2C was majors in which case X of 2C was "it's our hand, any shape that isn't bidding naturally" according to my partner. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMoe Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 If an immediate 2N is Lebensohl, that would be my choice - it makes finding a 2-level major contract moot for the opponents. I suspect we have an 8 card ♦ fit so I will bid 3♦ at my next turn. If I pass I let the opponents find their major too easily. The values are slow and too weak to consider doubling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyGo Posted October 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 If an immediate 2N is Lebensohl, that would be my choice - it makes finding a 2-level major contract moot for the opponents. I suspect we have an 8 card ♦ fit so I will bid 3♦ at my next turn. If I pass I let the opponents find their major too easily. The values are slow and too weak to consider doubling. So your plan is to bid 2NT and try to leave partner in 3D? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wank Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 why do you feel the need to do anything with this rancid collection? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyGo Posted October 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 why do you feel the need to do anything with this rancid collection? One of us felt we should (or did take an action) and the other thought that passing out in 2S was not ideal, but not unreasonable given the options. I'm here to poll the community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 why do you feel the need to do anything with this rancid collection? ditto did i miss something here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 ditto did i miss something here? Tritto. Bidding on this is poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_clown Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Pass first, if they stop in 2♥ I might consider doubling for t/o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 One reason to bid is that it is often a bad idea to let them play 2 in a major at mps. Besides this your shape is horrible. Make it at least xxx.xx.QJ9xx,Axx and more people would bid. For your question: X of 2 ♦ would still show- it is our hand. I cannot see a big diffence to a X of 2♣. So the question is: Do I double with this agreements- we do have the majority of HCPS or do I pass, because my hand is crap and I will get overboard in many situations? I guess, with your agreement, I had doubled 2 ♦ and hope that partner has a take out double of 2 ♠ or that I can X 2 ♥ for take out... But I am not sure, whether passing 2 ♦ will win more often, because it avoids many bad 3 NT contracts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilKing Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Pass throughout is clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 my experience bidding 5 card minors to the 3 level after partner opens 1NT is that it works awfully. Pass out is best soution as far as I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 I'd pass. How bad could it be? X should show ownership and set up penalty doubles. Awesome, now partner can't make a tox of spades, I can't make a tox of hearts, and we haven't discussed whether we're forced and how high. My high cards are close to a dbl, but with the number of shapely 14s that are opened 1N now and this awful 7, I'm really not comfortable even claiming ownership. And I'm certainly not comfortable doubling and then having to bid 3D when 2H comes back to me. And I'm definitely not good enough to rip 2M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyGo Posted October 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 I'd pass. How bad could it be? X should show ownership and set up penalty doubles. Awesome, now partner can't make a tox of spades, I can't make a tox of hearts, and we haven't discussed whether we're forced and how high. My high cards are close to a dbl, but with the number of shapely 14s that are opened 1N now and this awful 7, I'm really not comfortable even claiming ownership. And I'm certainly not comfortable doubling and then having to bid 3D when 2H comes back to me. And I'm definitely not good enough to rip 2M. This was part of the conversation afterwards: What is the difference between X-X and Pass-X. You seem to be saying that X-X is penalty, my partner was saying that it was TO and that Pass-X was "don't even look at your cards, just pass it out p." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 IMO X-X is 100% penalty, because I play X the same as a redouble wich makes all doubles penalty, and invites partner to double. I though this was pretty standard. pass and double is rare, convertible values not worth a double before but worth competing a bit further and also worth playing doubled if partner wants is possible but unlikelly (2NT is avaible as pick a minor). So is a hand that wants to double 2♠ for penalty but can't sit over 2♥X, I am not sure what the best meaning is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 The usual thing is that X-X is penalty and P-X is takeout. You can adjust the former if you like but not the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 This was part of the conversation afterwards: What is the difference between X-X and Pass-X. You seem to be saying that X-X is penalty, my partner was saying that it was TO and that Pass-X was "don't even look at your cards, just pass it out p." My understanding is that, today, your partner's approach would be wildly nonstandard. But there is likely a reason that your understanding and mine are similar, so take that for what it's worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyGo Posted October 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 My understanding is that, today, your partner's approach would be wildly nonstandard. But there is likely a reason that your understanding and mine are similar, so take that for what it's worth. I've been known to be out of touch with "standard" as well--especially after time away from playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyGo Posted October 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Ok, thanks all. I passed this out, and 2♠ was cold for a 0 for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Ok, thanks all. I passed this out, and 2♠ was cold for a 0 for us. So what were the other auctions? If RHO went nuts with the 2D bid, or if the field bid 2H because they have 45xx, or ... well, sucks but that happens, next hand. I don't think you lost this board on judgment unless it was in the POTH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyGo Posted October 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 So what were the other auctions? If RHO went nuts with the 2D bid, or if the field bid 2H because they have 45xx, or ... well, sucks but that happens, next hand. I don't think you lost this board on judgment unless it was in the POTH. I didn't get to see the traveler, but the 2D bid was normal (was 54 and they had a 9 card spade fit). The others either got to play in 1NT or 3D all making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 I didn't get to see the traveler, but the 2D bid was normal (was 54 and they had a 9 card spade fit). The others either got to play in 1NT or 3D all making. so the opp have a 9 card spade fit and you get a zero? so pard has a stiff spade, opened 1nt and passed 2s?no x for takeout,, no 2nt for minors?? You hold Qxx, Jx, 9xxxx, Axx and partner (in 3rd seat) opens a 15-17 NT. Ok, thanks all. I passed this out, and 2♠ was cold for a 0 for u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 Yes rabbit, if you have 3 spades and they have a 9 card fit, the 1NT opener opened with a Spade singleton. Are you saying this was standard across the field? Seems highly unlikely;y. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMoe Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 So your plan is to bid 2NT and try to leave partner in 3D?Pleading poor vision - I could'a sworn there were 6 ♦ cards, partner, honest!Changing my vote to pass on 3=2=5=3 with too little strength to double immediately. Let's defend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfay Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 I think in most situations where overcaller shows 2 suits (e.g. Michael's) doubling shows an interest in penalizing and does NOT set up a force. Passing then doubling shows 100% penalty. Passing then bidding is takeout-ish. I believe this to be pretty standard and it sounds like your partner applied that principle to the auction in question. In the case of interference over our strong NT circumstances have changed since we own half the deck. Doubling should set up a cooperative force through 2♠ and subsequent doubles become penalty. Passing and doubling should be takeout. On this hand I'd opt to defend if the opponents were vulnerable. As they are not, I think competing is clear at MPs (this should be done directly over 2♦, I think that passing then bidding 2NT should show the minors). At IMPs... I don't know what to do but I'd probably pass. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyGo Posted October 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 I think in most situations where overcaller shows 2 suits (e.g. Michael's) doubling shows an interest in penalizing and does NOT set up a force. Passing then doubling shows 100% penalty. Passing then bidding is takeout-ish. I believe this to be pretty standard and it sounds like your partner applied that principle to the auction in question. In the case of interference over our strong NT circumstances have changed since we own half the deck. Doubling should set up a cooperative force through 2♠ and subsequent doubles become penalty. Passing and doubling should be takeout. On this hand I'd opt to defend if the opponents were vulnerable. As they are not, I think competing is clear at MPs (this should be done directly over 2♦, I think that passing then bidding 2NT should show the minors). At IMPs... I don't know what to do but I'd probably pass. AH! Thank you! I hadn't put the first part and his idea together--I was so surprised about his opinion over 1NT that I didn't realize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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