"STOP - oh i didn't see your bid"

[jules101]

PAIRS

 

 

[hv=d=n&v=b&b=13&a=p1n(12-14)]133|100[/hv]

 

 

South now:

• 
   
  
• places STOP card on the table,
  
• lifts a bid from bidding box,
  
• then sees the 1N opener on his right, and
  
• says "Oh - I didn't see your bid...."
  

 

East has seen the bid pulled, but neither West or North has seen it.

 

East calls DIRECTOR.

 

When you arrive the bid is face down on the table.

 

(You are playing director who hasn't yet played this board :(, so you don't particularly want to ask what the bid was - eg 2M, 3M, 3m etc)

 

 

East complaining that North now has unauthorised info as a result of South's statement....

 

 

 

What are the options here?

 

 

OTHER ISSUES

 

1) 2-level bids over 1N would be conventional for NS. eg 2D would show a single suited major. 2M would be 5M & 4+ minor.

 

2) Can the "STOP bid" be replaced with "non-STOP conventional bid" here? eg 2D, and then auction would continue as if no irregularity had taken place

 

3) If South intended to bid "STOP 2M" (and still wishes to bid) is he still required to make a STOP natural bid - eg "STOP 3M"?

 

4) What constraints are there on North in the auction.

 

5) What constraints are there on North if he is on lead? [North hasn't seen the bid, but has a singleton Spade, so it doesn't take much effort for North to work out what his partner's suit is!]

 

 

As playing director you've not played the board yet.

 

You don't particularly want to know whether South pulled a 2-level or 3-level bid out of the box, or whether it was a major or a minor.

 

Can you resolve this without actually seeing the bid?

[campboy]

It appears that the relevant BGB regulation is the same as the EBU one:

A call is considered to have been made when the call is removed from the bidding box with apparent intent (but the Director may apply Law 25).

So the call (whatever it is) has been made. It cannot be changed via 25A as it was not unintended. South's comments (and the stop, if it is not still a jump) are UI to North, who must act as though South intended to make the call with whatever meaning it has as an overcall of 1NT.

 

Had South noticed earlier, after the STOP card but before the bid had come out of the box, then he would not be required to make a skip bid (or even a bid), but the fact that he intended to before seeing the 1NT would be UI to North.

[paulg]

The SBU BIdding Box regulations, applicable to this question, include:

 

§2 Players should refrain from touching any cards in the box until they have determined their call. Deliberation while touching the bidding box cards or removing bidding cards prior to the call being considered made may be regarded as Unauthorised Information and subject to the adjustment provisions of Law 16.

§3 At a player's turn to call, a call is considered to have been made when the bidding card is removed from the box with apparent intent.

 

If a player removes a bidding card from the box at another player's turn to call, and if partner could possibly know which card had been taken out, the call is considered to be a Call Out of Turn and should be dealt with under either Law 30 (Pass), Law 31(Bid) or Law 32 (Double/Redouble). If partner could not know which bidding card had been removed, then no call is deemed to have been made and Law 16 (Unauthorised Information) applies.

The second paragraph of §3 is not applicable here, since it was not another player's turn to call.

[bluejak]

PAIRS

 

 

[hv=d=n&v=b&b=13&a=p1n(12-14)]133|100[/hv]

 

 

South now:

• 
   
  
• places STOP card on the table,
  
• lifts a bid from bidding box,
  
• then sees the 1N opener on his right, and
  
• says "Oh - I didn't see your bid...."
  

 

East has seen the bid pulled, but neither West or North has seen it.

 

East calls DIRECTOR.

 

When you arrive the bid is face down on the table.

 

(You are playing director who hasn't yet played this board :(, so you don't particularly want to ask what the bid was - eg 2M, 3M, 3m etc)

 

 

East complaining that North now has unauthorised info as a result of South's statement....

 

 

 

What are the options here?

 

 

OTHER ISSUES

 

1) 2-level bids over 1N would be conventional for NS. eg 2D would show a single suited major. 2M would be 5M & 4+ minor.

 

2) Can the "STOP bid" be replaced with "non-STOP conventional bid" here? eg 2D, and then auction would continue as if no irregularity had taken place

 

3) If South intended to bid "STOP 2M" (and still wishes to bid) is he still required to make a STOP natural bid - eg "STOP 3M"?

 

4) What constraints are there on North in the auction.

 

5) What constraints are there on North if he is on lead? [North hasn't seen the bid, but has a singleton Spade, so it doesn't take much effort for North to work out what his partner's suit is!]

 

 

As playing director you've not played the board yet.

 

You don't particularly want to know whether South pulled a 2-level or 3-level bid out of the box, or whether it was a major or a minor.

 

Can you resolve this without actually seeing the bid?

Your job as a TD is to give a ruling. If you have not played the board, tough luck. If as a result of giving a ruling correctly you feel unable to play the board, then you give your opponents Ave+, and yourself Ave or Ave+ - see long discussion in another thread.

 

Once the call was removed from the box the call was made - see SBU regulations as cited [ignore BGB regulations which do not apply except in BGB competitions] so may not be changed. So you instruct that the call should be turned face up. It has now been made.

 

You now explain to the table that North's comment is UI to South - and explain that forcefully to him - but AI to his opponents. You also tell North if it happens again to STFU! You tell E/W to call you back if there is the slightest chance that South has taken any advantage, deliberately or otherwise, from North's comment.

 

In answer to your specific questions:

 

Can the "STOP bid" be replaced with "non-STOP conventional bid" here? eg 2D, and then auction would continue as if no irregularity had taken place?

The bid is made and may not be replaced.

 

If South intended to bid "STOP 2M" (and still wishes to bid) is he still required to make a STOP natural bid - eg "STOP 3M"?

Again, the bid is made and may not be replaced.

 

What constraints are there on North in the auction.

The normal UI restraints set by Laws 16B and 73C: he must take no advantage of the comment and treat the bids as if the comment had not been made.

 

What constraints are there on North if he is on lead? [North hasn't seen the bid, but has a singleton Spade, so it doesn't take much effort for North to work out what his partner's suit is!]

Same answer.

 

Can you resolve this without actually seeing the bid?

No. Don't try.

 

Ok, there is one exception to this answer: if you can find another competent TD to rule instead of you, and he has played the board, that's an alternative. But otherwise the TD should just do his job. Mike Swanson, who was at the very top of the TD profession many years ago, said he reckoned being a playing TD cost between 2% and 6% any evening he played.

[aguahombre]

I don't see what North did to earn a "STFU".

[bluejak]

Whoops - I meant South. I do wish I could look at the bidding diagram while I am writing a response.

[ahydra]

Whoops - I meant South. I do wish I could look at the bidding diagram while I am writing a response.

 

On the "full editor" for replying, there's a "Review the complete topic (launches new window)" link right at the bottom of the page. This is particularly useful when there have been just enough posts that the first reply, rather than the OP, is the last entry in the topic summary -.-

 

If you're really keen, use two monitors and put the OP on one and the reply window on the other :)

 

The ruling looks correct though. Given the epic amount of UI passed by South, I think I'd even stay at the table until the opening lead to ensure North has not used the UI.

 

ahydra

[CamHenry]

The ruling looks correct though. Given the epic amount of UI passed by South, I think I'd even stay at the table until the opening lead to ensure North has not used the UI.

 

This may not be quite practicable as a playing TD, and (to my mind) is also liable to foster the attitude that the TD call is punishment in and of itself. Not something we want. I would, however, ask how the auction/play proceeded.

 

Henry

[blackshoe]

I agree with David's ruling. I would add as a general statement that "stop" is neither a bid nor part of a bid — a bid designates a number of odd tricks and a denomination (Law 18A) — it is a warning or reminder to LHO of his obligations when the bid skips one or more levels. If a player puts out the stop card and then makes a simple (not a skip) bid, this extraneous action may convey UI to his partner. "Stop" is not an ironclad guarantee to anyone — particularly to opponents — that the bid will be a skip bid.