lamford Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 [hv=pc=n&s=sak3hk3daj43ckjt5&w=s9852ht96d9752c96&n=sq64hj8542dkq6caq&e=sjt7haq7dt8c87432&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1c(clubs%20or%20balanced)p1hp2np6ndppp]399|300[/hv] Teams, lead T♥; Table result: NS+1680 South, our friend from a local club who looks like the Secretary Bird and knows the EBU rules inside out, was like Oliver on the above deal, wanting more. He stated that the double of 6NT, obviously asking for a heart lead, was alertable, as it was a lead-directing double above 3NT. East argued that asking for a heart lead was standard, but South called the director, arguing he would have redoubled if he had known. How do you rule? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 OB5E4:Once the auction is above the level of 3NT, no calls are to be alerted except for: (a) Artificial opening bids (b) Lead-directing passes (c) Doubles or redoubles that are lead-directing but ask for the lead of a suit other than the suit doubled (or redoubled)This double doesn't seem to fall into any of the exceptions (© only applies when a suit has been bid, not NT). This looks like a traditional Lightner double to me, an 80+ year old treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 I'd want more than a post-facto statement that he would have redoubled to accept the assertion and adjust. Did he give a believable reason? And why did he not ask if he thought it made a difference, when he could easily have done so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 According to my reading of the OB, the Secretary Bird is technically correct. However, it appears to me that declarer will make exactly 12 tricks whatever the opening lead unless he later leads a heart from his hand — and the heart lead actually insures the contract at trick one. Also, the OB says OB 5H1: A player’s claim to have been damaged because the opponents failed to alert or announce a call will fail if it is judged that the player was aware of its likely meaning and if he had the opportunity to ask without putting his side’s interests at risk.It seems to me this double is, while not "standard", common enough that Mr. Secretary Bird should have recognized that he should ask about it, and that asking carries no risk. So I would tell the defending side that they need to alert these doubles, and I would tell the Secretary Bird that no, he doesn't get to turn an average into a top by manipulating the laws (or the director). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellSpyder Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 OB5E4:This double doesn't seem to fall into any of the exceptions (© only applies when a suit has been bid, not NT). This looks like a traditional Lightner double to me, an 80+ year old treatment.I agree with Barmar that this double doesn't fall into any of the exceptions listed in the OB. Since it is not a double (or redouble) of a suit, that immediately means it can't fall into the third category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 However, it appears to me that declarer will make exactly 12 tricks whatever the opening lead unless he later leads a heart from his hand — and the heart lead actually insures the contract at trick one.Declarer is aware of this. He wants the extra points from the redouble that he would have made with correct information (asking for a heart lead in this auction is practically a guarantee of ♥AQ, so he knows his K is working and partner's strength is all outside and fills in the holes in his hand). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 and I would tell the Secretary Bird that no, he doesn't get to turn an average into a top by manipulating the laws (or the director).If that double would normally produce an average in that club...hmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 If that double would normally produce an average in that club...hmmm.That's why he's a SB -- the competition is so tough he needs to resort to every loophole in the Laws to get a good result. Of course, he'll claim that they're all winning because they're not following the rules and getting away with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 That's why he's a SB -- the competition is so tough he needs to resort to every loophole in the Laws to get a good result. Of course, he'll claim that they're all winning because they're not following the rules and getting away with it.Or, if the competition is so weak that everyone would double 6NT with that, then our SB who plays there regularly must be equally bad or worse to need loopholes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluejak Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 There are two possibilities. Either it is not alertable - no adjustment - or it is alertable but no damage - no adjustment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Over there, are calls above 3NT alertable? If they are delayed alerts, it would be too late to redouble, anyway. In the ACBL, the delayed alert thing applies to either side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamford Posted October 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 OB5E4:This double doesn't seem to fall into any of the exceptions (( c) only applies when a suit has been bid, not NT). This looks like a traditional Lightner double to me, an 80+ year old treatment.If the final contract had been 6 of a suit other than hearts, and the double asked for a heart lead, it would clearly have been alertable, ancient treatment or not. I don't see any logical reason for your assertion that ( c ) only applies when a suit has been bid. It still asks for a lead of a suit other than the suit doubled. No suit was doubled, so it asks for a lead of one of the other suits, specifically hearts. It does not say: "Doubles or redoubles of a suit that are lead-directing but ask for the lead of a suit other than the one doubled (or redoubled)" And software that changes ( c ) when closed up to © might be changed too! Or is there a way to circumvent that? And yes, aguahombre, some calls over 3NT are alertable in England. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamford Posted October 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Declarer is aware of this. He wants the extra points from the redouble that he would have made with correct information (asking for a heart lead in this auction is practically a guarantee of ♥AQ, so he knows his K is working and partner's strength is all outside and fills in the holes in his hand).Indeed, in answer to you and gordontd, this was pretty much the point made by SB, almost immediately. "Well, he would, wouldn't he?", I hear some of you protest. And if he asked and was told "no agreement", then he would be practically marking the king of hearts in his hand. Why would he want to know, at that point, except to consider redoubling? Asking would stop West cashing a putative ace of hearts if the double was based, perhaps, on bad splits and short clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 And yes, aquahombre, some calls over 3NT are alertable....but we don't have delayed alerts (to answer more fully aguahombre's question). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamford Posted October 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Or, if the competition is so weak that everyone would double 6NT with that, then our SB who plays there regularly must be equally bad or worse to need loopholes.I did a simulation of the double of 6NT, and found that North was around 69% to have the king of hearts on this auction, and the heart lead was needed to beat it in 58% of those cases. That was just 100 hands, with the parameters that South had 18-19 balanced, North had 4-5 hearts, and 13-15 points. The double was a huge winner of IMPs. Especially if partner does not alert it, to reduce the risk of a redouble ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
campboy Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Whether or not there was damage on this particular hand, it would be nice to know whether the double is alertable for future hands. Personally I agree with Lamford. Hearts is a suit and it is not the suit doubled, so it is a suit other than the suit doubled. [edit]You can produce (c) by inserting spurious tags viz(c[b][/b]) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Whether or not there was damage on this particular hand, it would be nice to know whether the double is alertable for future hands. Personally I agree with Lamford. Hearts is a suit and it is not the suit doubled, so it is a suit other than the suit doubled. [edit]You can produce (c) by inserting spurious tags viz(c[b][/b])I'd also like to see the definitions tightened up, I always assumed that this was alertable because "suit" and "denomination" were used interchangeably except when by context it was absolutely clear they were not, but maybe I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffford76 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Over there, are calls above 3NT alertable? If they are delayed alerts, it would be too late to redouble, anyway. In the ACBL, the delayed alert thing applies to either side. In the ACBL, delayed alerts apply only to bids, not to all calls. Passes, doubles and redoubles if alertable are alertable at the time of the call even if the auction is beyond 3NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMB1 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 ... it would be nice to know whether the double is alertable for future hands.There was some measure of agreement soon after the 2006 alerting rules came into force that Lightner doubles were still alertable. We think the L&E thought that they had made them not alertable, but had not succeeded. I think players are expected to ask about doubles of (what appears to be) the final (high level) contract. Over the next few months there is work on revision of the EBU regulations - they may address this. You can produce (c) by inserting spurious tags viz(c[b][/b])cute! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluejak Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 And software that changes ( c ) when closed up to © might be changed too!It is very kind of BBO to host these forums without charge. But it does mean we have no control over the software: there are a number of ways that other forums have different software which does seem better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 I use curly brackets {} when I want to avoid © Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamford Posted October 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 I think players are expected to ask about doubles of (what appears to be) the final (high level) contract.I think players are entitled to assume that the double does not fall into an alertable category if it is not alerted. I would consider that asking would almost always damage his side's interests and for OB5H1 to apply, it is necessary for him BOTH to have been aware of the likely meaning AND to be able to ask without giving information to the opponents. The higher the level, the greater the likelihood the information that one is considering a further bid is useful. Like SB, I have no sympathy for those that do not read the Orange Book from cover to cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Like SB, I have no sympathy for those that do not read the Orange Book from cover to cover.I will get right on that, as soon as I finish "Mastering Mandarin as a Second Language". 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamford Posted October 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 and I would tell the Secretary Bird that no, he doesn't get to turn an average into a top by manipulating the laws (or the director) If that double would normally produce an average in that club...hmmm.Especially at teams ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Well, if it would normally produce a top, Mr. SB doesn't need the redouble, does he? B-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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